Religion is missing something?

[Chenier]

actually... you can have 2 things

a tithe set by banker.
a tithe set by lord.

all out of existing pot.

and no. some religion boss shouldn't be allowed to levy anything themselves. they can exert power to force a levy via another character (riots that loots gold, for example)... but not directly.

and it should be possible for paganistic nobles/gov to get rid of followers of player religion via persecution. afterall, what is paganism in this context? they believe in something, just not the something the player created religions believe in. romans with their many gods are seen as pagans by christians, for example.

Voluntary self-imposed tithes... now that sounds good to me!

[Chenier]

No, it's a bug. Or at least I would consider it a bug.

So, there's a region with 10,000 people in it. And you're going to spend enough time in the region, talking to enough people, and spreading around enough gold, that you're going to convince enough them that Keplerstan isn't really so bad as all that, and the other nobles in the region that run with the same crowd are not going to notice this? But a priest can meet with 30 local peasants, convince maybe two of them to join Keplerism, and everyone in the region, and surrounding regions, notices?

Solution: make priest work invisible.

Or moreso.

And make diplomat work have a generic message, whether it be good or bad, and give diplomats the option to learn move about what was said lately to the people (both by priests and other diplomats).

[Chenier]

Quick question: does the "The peasants are unhappy that the local Lord does not follow the majority religion" appear if the majority religion is paganism? I think it would make sense that it does, even when the Lord is also pagan: after all, if it's not organized, it's probably not the same brand of paganism.

If paganism stops being more profitable for people in terms of game mechanics than joining a religion does (spending money, making sure your region follows your faith, having more people with some authority over you, etc.), then that would be a good thing.

[Gustav Kuriga]

I believe Lords and Dukes should be allowed to set aside a certain percentage of taxes for their religion.

[Indirik]

Have your religion set up a rank that has a monthly fee, and get yourself assigned to it. We did this in Sanguis Astroism, but I'm not sure how well it went over. Soon after we implemented the ranks, I went back to Aspirant status for a while. It was something that was often requested by the members, though.

Edit: I am fairly certain that Tom was against any kind of automated donation, or automated golf transfer into a religion from a lord. I think his opinion was that if your religion was worthwhile, the players would make it a point to do it themselves.

[Jens Namtrah]

I think his opinion was that if your religion was worthwhile, the players would make it a point to do it themselves.

that's the problem, though. Religion has a Catch-22 - the majority of the players in the game don't really roleplay, and without a Game Mechanic there is no reason for them to make the religion worthwhile. At some point if Tom wants religion to be a bigger part of the game, he will need to step in with a Hand of God and add a few things, I guess.

Playing a priest is pretty much like playing an adventurer right now - doesn't matter how much effort you put into roleplaying it, there is no real incentive for anyone to respond to you about anything. So you give up.

Personally, I'm just going to either figure out which religion on Atamara is most active, or create a new one, with the sole purpose of driving out all the "dead" ones. Gives me something interesting to do in religion, when even the Founder and Elder can't be bothered to RP it at all.

[Gustav Kuriga]

Edit: I am fairly certain that Tom was against any kind of automated donation, or automated golf transfer into a religion from a lord. I think his opinion was that if your religion was worthwhile, the players would make it a point to do it themselves.

But taking your own taxes and giving it directly to the religion is doing that themselves. All you do by forcing them to manually send the gold is make them click more buttons for the same result. I would, of course, restrict this to only the lord's religion and only if the lord's region has an existing temple built.

[fodder]

Edit: I am fairly certain that Tom was against any kind of automated donation, or automated golf transfer into a religion from a lord. I think his opinion was that if your religion was worthwhile, the players would make it a point to do it themselves.

was it that or was it magic gold disappearing from 1 part of the world and appearing in the opposite side in gold?

thing about tithes... is where does it go. local temple would make sense (at least for the lord's tithes). what happens if there's no local temple? global treasury? but global treasury can't be used for anything other than maintenance... if it could be used for construction / hiring guards, then it might be a useful route.

the worst thing about religion, is basically it's a religion that's not a religion. there's absolutely no reason to believe in most of the drivel. and it's very difficult to come up with good drivel in the 1st place.

[vonGenf]

Playing a priest is pretty much like playing an adventurer right now - doesn't matter how much effort you put into roleplaying it, there is no real incentive for anyone to respond to you about anything. So you give up.

I can assure you that this is not the case on the SMA continent.

[Indirik]

But taking your own taxes and giving it directly to the religion is doing that themselves. All you do by forcing them to manually send the gold is make them click more buttons for the same result. I would, of course, restrict this to only the lord's religion and only if the lord's region has an existing temple built.

I worked up a proposal for a system that would allow lords who were members of a religion to automatically fund a temple of their religion that was in their own region, based on a portion of their regional taxes being tithed to that temple. The proposal was rejected.

So what you're proposing has already been proposed, and rejected. Tom wants personal involvement of nobles in religion. If you can't make your religion worthwhile to the players, and something they want to be involved in, then the religion system will not allow your religion to operate on cruise control. Religion will not be a "set it and forget it" thing, the way that realm-wide elections used to be. Because as soon as that happens, then the same people who were here asking for this will be back complaining that someone else's religion is rich and powerful, but there is no player involvement, because they just have a bunch of rich lords who use the automatic tithe system, etc.

[De-Legro]

But taking your own taxes and giving it directly to the religion is doing that themselves. All you do by forcing them to manually send the gold is make them click more buttons for the same result. I would, of course, restrict this to only the lord's religion and only if the lord's region has an existing temple built.

We are also forcing them to care enough about the religion they have joined to remember to click the buttons, or to check if the funds are needed etc. There are already enough complaints about people joining a religion just to prop it up and having no input into the group, auto systems will just make it even easier for this to occur.

[Chenier]

Have your religion set up a rank that has a monthly fee, and get yourself assigned to it. We did this in Sanguis Astroism, but I'm not sure how well it went over. Soon after we implemented the ranks, I went back to Aspirant status for a while. It was something that was often requested by the members, though.

Edit: I am fairly certain that Tom was against any kind of automated donation, or automated golf transfer into a religion from a lord. I think his opinion was that if your religion was worthwhile, the players would make it a point to do it themselves.

I think he has, but it might have been over imposed tithes.

The difference between the monthly fee and a tithe is fundamental. One forces the noble to actually travel to a temple and empty his own pockets to do a one-time transfer. The other just involves a lord setting a tithe rate, sharing the costs with everyone of his region in a way that adapts to production levels (low production for a week will result in a less painful tithe) without him having to remember every X days.

One requires more effort, the cost is direct and personal, and the process must regularly be repeated. The second is easy, the cost is shared and impersonal, and the process is automatic. In a world where the law of least effort rules, that really sets it. Plus, it's basic psychology: people would prefer the government give eco-friendly incentives than they further increase gas taxes, even if these incentives will come out of their pockets just the same. As an elder, I am confident I could convince a great number of people to impose thithes upon themselves. Paying their fees, though? It's so much work with such little probabily of success that it's not worth it. Especially if the fee has accumulated for a while...

[fodder]

... I'd chuck in some gold loss from corruption if I were you if implementing tithes.

[Chenier]

... I'd chuck in some gold loss from corruption if I were you if implementing tithes.

I thought that's what religion maintenance was...?

[Chenier]

I worked up a proposal for a system that would allow lords who were members of a religion to automatically fund a temple of their religion that was in their own region, based on a portion of their regional taxes being tithed to that temple. The proposal was rejected.

So what you're proposing has already been proposed, and rejected. Tom wants personal involvement of nobles in religion. If you can't make your religion worthwhile to the players, and something they want to be involved in, then the religion system will not allow your religion to operate on cruise control. Religion will not be a "set it and forget it" thing, the way that realm-wide elections used to be. Because as soon as that happens, then the same people who were here asking for this will be back complaining that someone else's religion is rich and powerful, but there is no player involvement, because they just have a bunch of rich lords who use the automatic tithe system, etc.

Having some grow passively rich and powerful will force others to actively grow rich and powerful to compensate.

Doesn't take much gold to go wreck religious infrastructure, so taking away from the lords purses will not make a religion an unstoppable thing. Far from it.

This is one of these things were I completely disagree with Tom's reasoning.