Use of Rumour and personal information on irc, in forums, ingame and other places like skype and fac

[Geronus]

I have removed posts not relevant to this case. Due to the highly personal nature of this dispute, we will be moderating this thread carefully. If your post does not directly concern the allegations made in the first post, I will remove it. If it contains personal attacks, I will remove them.

Your personal dispute will not continue here beyond the sharing of evidence and your perspectives insofar as they are relevant.

If there is bullying going on elsewhere, report it in a separate case if appropriate, but please be aware that the Magistrates are unable to take any actions against individuals who do not have BM accounts.

[Anaris]

While I can certainly agree in general with the policy of deleting personal attacks, I can't help but wonder—particularly given the dearth of specific evidence worth holding up as examples of the behaviour Atanamir is accused of—if it wouldn't be better to retain both sides of the personal snipes, at least in the Backroom, as evidence of the state of mind of the parties involved.

[Fleugs]

I will post the IRC logs I have soon. Want them posted here or on a third-party site (and if so, which)? I could post small parts here and full logs somewhere else for completion's sake.

[Geronus]

While I can certainly agree in general with the policy of deleting personal attacks, I can't help but wonder—particularly given the dearth of specific evidence worth holding up as examples of the behaviour Atanamir is accused of—if it wouldn't be better to retain both sides of the personal snipes, at least in the Backroom, as evidence of the state of mind of the parties involved.

I will do so in the future. In the Backroom that is.

[Geronus]

I will post the IRC logs I have soon. Want them posted here or on a third-party site (and if so, which)? I could post small parts here and full logs somewhere else for completion's sake.

Not my area of expertise. If you are familiar with a good third party site, choose one and post the link and any necessary instructions for accessing them. Please also post anything particularly relevant here.

[Fleugs]

The entire log can be found at http://pastebin.com/90n5aivP. The following are extracts from the log which I find noteworthy.

May 17 2013;

[19:24] <Atanamir> i know now you why you hate him so much
01[19:24] <Fleugs> he's a douche player
01[19:24] <Fleugs> :)
[19:24] <Atanamir> he is an OOC liar and powergamer
01[19:24] <Fleugs> yup
01[19:24] <Fleugs> totally
01[19:24] <Fleugs> even Sinted warned me of that
01[19:24] <Fleugs> maybe I should have warned you ;)
[19:25] <Atanamir> he and deytheur are couple IRL, they sit in same room and play eponllyn and caligus and sandwich perdan

01[19:28] <Fleugs> file a complaint, but I know Deytheur ever since she began playing BM
01[19:28] <Fleugs> and I really, REALLY doubt they are living together
01[19:28] <Fleugs> or even IRL friends
[19:28] <Atanamir> he said it to Ays, and she said it to me
[19:29] <Atanamir> so the thing is solid
01[19:29] <Fleugs> get a case running then
01[19:29] <Fleugs> for OOC cheating
[19:29] <Atanamir> no that is direty
01[19:29] <Fleugs> I'm happy to oblige against Dobby

01[19:46] <Fleugs> I'll get in touch with Woelfy
01[19:46] <Fleugs> he might add to it too

June 05 2013

[11:01] <Atanamir> titans rejected my complaint did I tell you?
01[11:02] <Fleugs> yup
[11:02] <Atanamir> autrey knows now as well
[11:02] <Atanamir> since she said that perdan is doing suspicious things by having so much CS :P
[11:02] <Atanamir> i told her i ma not cheater here
[11:02] <Atanamir> :P
01[11:02] <Fleugs> no Perdan has alway been like that
[11:02] <Atanamir> then discussions started
[11:02] <Atanamir> in ooc
[11:03] <Atanamir> and i told her
[11:03] <Atanamir> she fell from her chair lol
01[11:03] <Fleugs> lol
[11:03] <Atanamir> she said she susspected this sing long as well
[11:04] <Atanamir> cause saina already in ibladesh kneww to many things since elisedd was caligus marhsal
[11:04] <Atanamir> but didn't realize it was that bad

I think in the next part he was referring to me calling Atanamir out about how he was spreading rumours that Dobromir and Deytheur were in a relationship, while I have repeatedly asked Deytheur this and at all points she denied it. At the same time it doesn't at all look like Dobromir and Deytheur logged in at the same time, and in either case whatever is or isn't going on is entirely irrelevant to Battlemaster;

[15:30] <Atanamir> this is a game, I am going for a flame war
[15:30] <Atanamir> i had this enough in my 9 years lol
[15:30] <Atanamir> sometimes ppl have difefrent opinions, that is fine, end of topic

[Fleugs]

I also recall that the rejection of his titan case and the emergence of these rumours on the forum, and likely in other places as well, are more or less the same in time. For this however there should be cross-reference between the rejection of his titan case and the forum logs.

[Bendix]

Alexandros Stavrou did mention the alleged relationship between Deytheur and Menethil to me in an OOC comment. His comment was that the magistrates had ruled against him, and that he would abide their decision. He also stated that his personal opinion was that, while legal, it was "in bad taste" for them to both have ruler characters on the same continent. I actually agree with him on this particular sentiment; I am also of the opinion that doing such a thing would be "in bad taste", if true.

However, that is only my personal opinion, and there is nothing strictly unethical about having bad taste.

Alexandros Stavrou was careful not to overtly ask me to change my IC behavior in any way (such as turning on my allies) after receiving this information. He did at one point mention that "Siana and Dobromir will just turn on Armonia as soon as the war is over", and that they were "Laughing about it in IRC". I responded by saying I would not discuss IC issues OOC.

[Atanamir]

Well thank you for those logs Fleugs, I somehow got another 2 trust medals overnight. ;)

To the protocoll: I want to add that in the line "I am going for a flame war" I meant "I am NOT going for a flame war"
Everyone who knows me from IRC, knows that I am crappy typer and I forget often words.
Still, if you read entire logs and see context, then it makes no sense that I wanted a flame war.
I hate flame wars, I am really too old and have no time for this crap.

Now I strongly encourage to read the entire log for the pieces that Fleugs posted are quite far away from each other.
First of all, I apologize to Jason/Laura for one line in this logs, where I got carried away and fell below my own level, for what I feel ashamed.
However, it also can be clearly seen that my conversation with Fleugs was of investigative nature (he plays BM for 10 years so I was sure he could keep this info for himself, he often accused Jason as cheater, so I gave info to get his info and see if there is more behind the topic) and that I was primarily interested to solve this IC (by defeating the realms and split their power as rulers), and if not possible, with a report. Fleugs encouraged me though to file a report as well.
I also did tell him that this would be a Titan case in order to not spread this issue in public (Magistrate cases are public) around and that I was concerned about privacy reasons.
You can also read that I explicitely asked him not to spread this information around.
I also told him of my mistake with Autrey when I wanted to make sure that he knew of the verdict and that the issue is settled and that intended to solve it via IC means.
The last part is where Fleugs harassed and flamed me on the matter quite harshly calling me things in public out and then in personal to quit my char in Perdan, trying to put me in the corner of "I am taking things too personal". I just let him flame out, obviously, well, at the end, it's Fleugs.

Also, thank you Nate (Autrey) for confirming what I also said in my earlier post. It was a mistake and it slipped out and for this I am sorry.
At no means I wanted to influence his decision and he obviously still wars with Armonia Perdan and I'm totally fine with that.
Also, I was sure that he would not spread this information around, he is a responsible player.

[Menethil]

No your apology wont be accepted.  I have told multiple of your friends that thats what I wanted from the start.  At this point after your rage and insults even just yesterday morning I feel this is only a way for you to try and avoid punishment.  Thing still stands Ays told you and you only.  You made sure it got out to the whole community and you used it for your own benefit.  This was not an accident.  It was crazy over competitiveness that you let get way too far.  You have months to apologise for this now that there are people beginning to share information and after i tell certain people why I started this in the first place I see an apology shortly after?

Im sorry but I have no reason to believe this is genuine.  You cause me alot of headaches grief and destroyed my interest in battlemaster and the first thing out of your mouth was 'hahah sore loser rage quit'  You are hardly sorry of what happened.  All that matters for you has and will be your reputation and your name in this game I know this is only a way to try and keep it as good as possible.

The post deleted by generous yesterday proves that you have no remorse you called me all sorts of names yesterday afternoon and all of a sudden you are now sorry.  Did you simply talk to Fleugs?  No.  Did you simply just mention it to Autrey after that?  No.  By your own admittance you told Velax also.  Im sure you had many other friends you had no business telling also but they are your friends and wont speak up in here.

Thats all I have to say on the matter.  Once I opened this thread it was too late for an apology.  Like I said I dont believe its a genuine apology whatsoever.

[Atanamir]

I tried to reconcile and asked Jason just earlier on IRC now of what he wants from me to do for an apology and so he feels better again:

[10:08] <+Dobromir> if you want to prove you are sorry
[10:08] <+Dobromir> get up now
[10:08] <+Dobromir> and delete Atanamir

I will leave this to the Magistrates to interprete.
For my part, I am also ready to continue my talks with Jason, but only in public and transparent.
Edited: As I feel as well all this public discussion harms the game, a moderated room would also suffice.

The entire discussion is on the #bm-channel on IRC now, but I don't know how to keep logs and I am also at work, my time is limited.
Maybe someone else from the channel can do it.

[Menethil]

I tried to reconcile and asked Jason just earlier on IRC now of what he wants from me to do for an apology and so he feels better again:

I will leave this to the Magistrates to interprete.
For my part, I am also ready to continue my talks with Jason, but only in public and transparent.

The entire discussion is on the #bm-channel on IRC now, but I don't know how to keep logs and I am also at work, my time is limited.
Maybe someone else from the channel can do it.

This was hardly the context of the convo everyone knows I left irc so i dont have any of the conversation.  I however wont even be saying a single word further to you on any public network.  Stabbity was there and I shortly followed by it wouldnt change anything and I agreed with it.  This was purely my personal opinion and wasnt a demand or request from me.   I dont believe he is sorry so this is my way of telling him because I know hes not feeling even close to bad enough to do anything of this sort.  There was no intent on these words whatsoever.  I have now also put the person on ignore as I can see he is trying to gain any advantage he can in the situation and he not remorseful whatsoever.  The public nature of this so called apology is  purely to make him seem like a good guy in the community. 

[Revan]

Should IRC/Chat be so prominently promoted inside BattleMaster if it can lead to situations like this? Seems like a nasty, cliquey place based on all of this. Doesn't seem like a place we should be pushing newer players. Especially when some folk seem to think it's a place where they can do and say anything without fear of punishment. I'm not saying stop people using IRC, but certainly the game should not be linking directly to it if players are walking into a viper pit. This is supposed to be a friendly, collegial board game like you would play with friends :-\

[^ban^]

Should IRC/Chat be so prominently promoted inside BattleMaster if it can lead to situations like this? Seems like a nasty, cliquey place based on all of this. Doesn't seem like a place we should be pushing newer players. Especially when some folk seem to think it's a place where they can do and say anything without fear of punishment. I'm not saying stop people using IRC, but certainly the game should not be linking directly to it if players are walking into a viper pit. This is supposed to be a friendly, collegial board game like you would play with friends :-\

Just because there are one or two jerks doesn't mean everyone is a jerk.

[Anaris]

People have been saying the same thing about the forum: that it's the cause of all this nastiness, that people feel free to flame other people, that before the forums, people were more polite.

I don't think either is true, and I don't think this is the place to discuss it.

If you want to discuss the role of different communications media in the BM community, go start another thread. Further posts on that topic on this thread will be deleted.