Expecting the wrong type of Roleplaying game

[Tel]

I'm wondering how many others may agree or disagree with what this topic entails.

Battlemaster isn't a peaceful roleplaying game -- you aren't sitting around a Dungeon and Dragons game where all your characters are on the same team and your roleplaying out an experience working together against some non-human entity, that would be a form of non-competitive roleplaying.  Battlemaster is a type of roleplaying game where your competing against other players; your making plans to take over other realms controlled by players, carefully stepping your way up the social ladder to rise above others in glory or personal ambition, or leading a conquest of personal honor or the unification of all lands and factions.  Perhaps you could throw the words 'peace' in there someplace, but it really doesn't seem to fit into Battlemaster as either a long-term concept or even natural concept to consider in the Battlemaster lore.

Yet for all that, I've seen a fair few situations around the Battlemaster community over the years where people seem to reveal they don't see Battlemaster as... well Battlemaster.  From the discussion mailing lists to IRC tidbits, to the wiki and, more recently, the forums located here -- people have discussed in a combination of OOC and IC around how Battlemaster could be a peaceful roleplaying game.

Some realms try to use the path of 'peace' as an in-game roleplaying characteristic and motivator for realm actions/direction, others try the so-called 'honor' and 'compassion' in which characters never resort to any form of violence and openly champion their characters in-game to oppose all war in politics, diplomacy, and even day-to-day roleplaying. 

Roleplaying is quite limited only by your own imagination, but even Battlemaster has eventually developed a few firm, over-arching 'Rules of the BM Universe'... and I think strong non-competitive aspects can hardly be something to take seriously as either a long-term, serious realm-related direction, or as a heavily active characteristic and trait of player characters.  Everyone is fairly free to roleplay their characters as they see fit, as per the naturally set out game rules...

... but serious, non-competitive roleplaying in Battlemaster really seems to be... contrary.

Like I said, this isn't some little corner of the internet where your roleplaying about happy fairies and saving dwarves while conquering evil hordes of demons, whilst at the same time drawing rainbows and having tea and cookies... Battlemaster strikes me as a little more competitive and rich in player vs player politics.

[Bedwyr]

Aye.  It always annoys me when I see people in power in the game walking a pacifist path, and I've seen it all too often.

[Longmane]

The problem often seems to be those who once they've succeeded gaining power suddenly become so afraid of losing it they actually change their whole IC rational towards keeping it, ie although he/she might have been the most valiant and warlike char in the realm before being voted into power, a sudden miraculous change of IC heart leaves it's poor nobles not with a lion at the reigns as expected but a mouse.

[vonGenf]

You have to be careful not to confuse Battlemaster with a Realm vs Realm game. It is partly that, of course, but it is also mainly a PvP game.

You see many character who drag their realm into an unwarlike stance after gaining power; this does not mean they are playing non-competitively, on the contrary. This mean that the best path to fullfil their ambitions resides in not going to war. This is perfectly legitimate.

I agree that "serious, non-competitive roleplaying" is contrary to Battlemaster, although it does not bother me as such if people find fun in playing that. I disagree, however, that the same should be extended to realms.

[Peri]

I think the most important factor is that by going up in the hierarchy you start to carry on a lot of responsibility upon yourself. This means that when you start making choices you know you're influencing a lot of players be them your realm mates or enemies. So while one may expect that in a medieval roleplaying context a war can start over an insult, well, perhaps in bm is not happening so often.

I confess that this attitude it's probably not the right one to play with, but at least in my case I can't completely ignore it.

[songqu88@gmail.com]

There is definitely conflict, but in a strange sort of individual way. Too many characters, players even, think that the way to whatever goals hey have or even their goal itself, is to subvert, sabotage, or appropriate power for themselves using whatever underhanded tactics possible. Is that realistic? Of course. However, there is also the thing about realms. You know how BM advertised it to the world as the game where you actually start off in a team? At least that's what I remember back in 2007 when I was surfing around in my dorm wondering what online game to spend a little time while I was bored in between lectures.

Too many people I think want something more, or different. Who knows what it is. But that only leaves the point that if everyone is a leader, then there will be no followers to do anything. That is not to say that there are no followers. Those would be the majority of characters who don't talk, usually played by players who don't have the time or otherwise don't put in too much time into the game. And that's good for them, because seriously, this is a game. Say what you like about my post count or time spent logged in, at the end of the day, I'm still aiming to get a dual doctorate, working my best to learn lab techniques so I have a better skillset, and I still won't be talking about any achievements in BM. It's a game, so it's good to have fun, but not so good to get obsessed.

Now, on that point, I have observed that there have been people, myself unfortunately included at one point, who think that the point of being heard or whatever in a realm is to be as loud and obnoxious as possible. Some examples that spring to mind are Anabellium West and Leoma Tahlim, both of whom are now inactive (And the Tahlim family seems to be gone. Meh.) Something about the loud ones makes me wonder though how many realms would truly see them off as loud and otherwise pointless, being capable of replacing them with someone just as capable but more amenable to the team spirit.

That, I think, is something sorely lacking in certain pockets of BM, perhaps even the majority. There is a lack of true teamwork, in that unlike a group that really works together and supports each other towards a common goal, maybe even share some friendship (Gasp, friendship? In BM?), the status quo to me seems more like a pragmatic arrangement, where little weasels can still snake into power. Lefanis family, Chenier family, Valentine family, Himoura family, I'm looking at you guys.

But, there is also the thought that many people are unwitting sheep to be led. While all the drama isn't necessarily a bad thing, it can get tiresome sometimes. Of course, the sword that hangs over a king's head has been there since the beginning, so those who don't want to taste that shouldn't attempt it. Aristotle also once said that a monarch was protected by his subjects while a tyrant feared them because anyone among them could achieve power through bloodshed much like he had. And so the revolving empire and all, yeah?

Now I'm going to stop there because I've gone likely into nonsense.

[Longmane]

While agreeing with VonGenf over the point that a ruler, either newly appointed or otherwise, sometimes "needs" drag their realm into a period of peace for a while, perhaps to allow it heal it wounds and regain/build up it's strength for something in the offing etc, and likewise with Peri concerning the added responsibility you acquire while rising up the ladder, I nevertheless believe it's crucially important to not go overboard about it,  as while a "look at what our realm risk's if we go to war/why don't we just simply try getting on with our neighbours?" etc stance is perhaps OK in the short term it's not in the long, as that runs the risk of players not only getting bored and leaving the realm, but worse perhaps even leaving the game, especially in the case of newbies who having signed up for a game they thought was about war actually seems be one about "peace in our time"!!

Sorry about getting on my soap box a bit there  ;D

[vonGenf]

While agreeing with VonGenf over the point that a ruler, either newly appointed or otherwise, sometimes "needs" drag their realm into a period of peace for a while, perhaps to allow it heal it wounds and regain/build up it's strength for something in the offing etc,

You're still thinking at the level of the realm.

What I'm saying is that sometimes the way to gain more power/gold/influence/whatever your goal may be is by keeping the realm at peace rather than at war. This may be destructive to the realm, but not all your characters should identify their goals with the goals of the realm. This is still competitive playing.

[Longmane]

I most definitely agree with that sometimes being the case, as while a war with their neighbors might indeed suit the realms interest, ie perhaps over some slight of their rulers honour, border dispute etc,  there might well be nobles within it whose personal interests would suffer, ie Duke Skinflint ye greedy, the fine upstanding trader who at the moments making a fortune selling food to them, or the two De-Shady brothers who have an "understanding" with them to prevent such a thing happening  ;)

[Indirik]

When I joined BattleMaster back in 2006, there was definitely a more team-oriented, strategy-game feel to things. There was a lot of cooperation among the realm members to achieve a realm-wide goal. A lot of the more active players, from what I remember, were not the heavy role players. They tended to treat the main focus of the game as multiplayer strategy. There was, of course, some role playing involved, but realm-v-realm conflict was the major focus.

The trend I have seen over the past couple years has turned more away from that team-oriented strategy game. "Strategy gamers" are frowned upon by a vocal percentage of the players.  The focus has seemed to shift more toward intra-realm conflict. It now tends to be a more internal politics type conflict in a lot of places.

Depending on what you're looking for, you really need to be careful with your realm selection. You can still find realms that tend to favor a more team-oriented realm-v-realm style game, as well as realms that support a more internal-politics style focus. But you have to look around quite a bit to find a good fit for you.

If you are looking for a more wide-open, pure RP environment, try out the priest game, or even the advy game. (Although finding people who want to do a lot of advy RPing can be a challenge!)

[Bedwyr]

When I joined BattleMaster back in 2006, there was definitely a more team-oriented, strategy-game feel to things. There was a lot of cooperation among the realm members to achieve a realm-wide goal. A lot of the more active players, from what I remember, were not the heavy role players. They tended to treat the main focus of the game as multiplayer strategy. There was, of course, some role playing involved, but realm-v-realm conflict was the major focus.

This.  Now, part of it is undoubtedly that neither of us knew about the political struggles as we were too new, but not all of it, or even most of it.  One of the reasons I'm enjoying my character in Perdan right now is that it's the first realm I've played in for a good long while that got back to old-style BM for me.  And, of course, the War Islands used to be two full continents full of this, and the loss of them sent the player count reeling in a way that I think we're still feeling.

All of the efforts to break the Realm from being All have worked.  Duchies, regions, guilds, factions, religions, all of these now dominate the gameplay more often than not.  Some days I like that (and it's certainly more realistic) but that's with three characters at or near the top of all the little groups they know of.  Some days I really don't, and that's when I spend more time on Rhennthyl fighting a straight up war with Ibladesh.

[Vellos]

When I joined BattleMaster back in 2006, there was definitely a more team-oriented, strategy-game feel to things. There was a lot of cooperation among the realm members to achieve a realm-wide goal. A lot of the more active players, from what I remember, were not the heavy role players. They tended to treat the main focus of the game as multiplayer strategy. There was, of course, some role playing involved, but realm-v-realm conflict was the major focus.

The trend I have seen over the past couple years has turned more away from that team-oriented strategy game. "Strategy gamers" are frowned upon by a vocal percentage of the players.  The focus has seemed to shift more toward intra-realm conflict. It now tends to be a more internal politics type conflict in a lot of places.

Depending on what you're looking for, you really need to be careful with your realm selection. You can still find realms that tend to favor a more team-oriented realm-v-realm style game, as well as realms that support a more internal-politics style focus. But you have to look around quite a bit to find a good fit for you.

If you are looking for a more wide-open, pure RP environment, try out the priest game, or even the advy game. (Although finding people who want to do a lot of advy RPing can be a challenge!)

I count myself one of those vocal opponents.

I have my "team" in BM. My characters form personal alliances. That team is non-contiguous with the realm. Even back in the days of Oligarch, I was more loyal to some Sirionites than some Oligarchans. IMHO, BM is PvP.

When I ascend to power, maybe I want war against my neighbors. But maybe I consider my neighbors my friends, and my real enemy is that pesky guy in that other duchy who's always bothering me.

Because the goal of BM for many players is not "big, long-lasting realm," and many of those players also happen to be very active players having a higher concentration in higher ranks, much of BM simply won't be about fighting other realms. If your pet project is a war against another realm, have fun, but, for me, it's about forging a different kind of political dynasty, or about collecting economic strength, or about developing a religion, or, most simply, about developing a character.

I'm not interested in the Realm-Team as a player simply because my realm-mates are often people I'm in the greatest conflict with. I've no beef with a neighboring foreign duke who doesn't compete for power with me; I've lots of complaints against the capital duke who hoards power for himself and tries to play king-maker.

[Vaylon Kenadell]

I have something I want to say about the roleplay I've seen lately. I don't like page after page of illiterate or pretentious "roleplay" -- especially if it's not something that people can respond to. Some people seem to be under the impression that roleplay consists of thinly-disguised religious/philosophical treatises or lengthy inner monologues regarding a characters' feelings on battle. (This isn't a single-player jRPG.) These posts are, quite frankly, tedious to read. How about something practical and tangible -- i.e., with very few feelings or thoughts -- such as: working in groups to destroy fortifications, looting and plundering, interacting with the army and one's lieges, etc.?

Roleplay is collaborative. In my opinion, it should be brief, it should be concise, it should be tangible, and it should allow others the chance to join in or respond.

[songqu88@gmail.com]

Some people do find that they enjoy writing some sort of novella, and it's easy enough to skim past it. No need to begrudge them that pleasure.

We could advise for more dialogue, of course, which probably would make for more fun roleplaying and might bring back a greater sense of team spirit rather than what appears to be a trend of fragmented small, rarely large, factions all vying for their own goals. Hey, I'm all about the dream to one day be a part of a realm that does stand alone on a continent, surrounded by rogue regions of fallen enemies. And then the continent sinks or something haha, but whatever, epic ending I guess.

Well, the unfortunate part is that there is really no way to cure pretentiousness. Trying to talk to them OOCly about it will result in thorns. Trying to go ICly will result in thorns as well. Usually. Not everyone is like that, so try talking to some of them to see if they'll be more amenable to social roleplays.

[Gustav Kuriga]

I personally have no problem with either way of playing. Back when the invasion of Beluaterra was occuring, I had a character in Hetland. He was planning to betray the realm because he believed that Hetland was full of bigoted zealots. On Dwilight, however, Gustav Kuriga is loyal to the bone, though sometimes that loyalty causes him to be pulled in multiple directions.