Barca, Luria, etc.

[Vita`]

This is why I railed against the death of Barca. The stillborn death of change, new politics, and new powers.

Barca was given multiple opportunities to avoid death politically by Luria, but stubbornly refused them at every turn. Luria specifically made Aveston the last priority of major townsland/city regions to recover and even as the armies were marching into Aveston, was offering it a way out. It refused.

[GundamMerc]

Barca was given multiple opportunities to avoid death politically by Luria, but stubbornly refused them at every turn. Luria specifically made Aveston the last priority of major townsland/city regions to recover and even as the armies were marching into Aveston, was offering it a way out. It refused.

No, I'm talking right at the beginning of the monster invasion, not after Barca, already half-dead and only getting worse, arrived there. By the time Barca had a foothold, its potential was already gone. Most of the new players who had joined the game through it (many were from the bay12forums, of Dwarf Fortress fame. So basically we managed to scare off the "Losing is !!Fun!!" crowd) quit or let their account go inactive (basically the same thing without the formality) when the monster invasion evicted us completely.

[Vita`]

Okay. That's a fair distinction. I would add that Luria was in negotiations with Barca, Fissoa, and D'hara for a peaceable survival prior to the League's invasion, but they rejected that too. Still, I see your point is more aimed at the non-player interactions that put Barca in the situation it was; I just wish to point out there were options available and decisions made even considering the poor position the western realms were put in.

[GundamMerc]

Okay. That's a fair distinction. I would add that Luria was in negotiations with Barca, Fissoa, and D'hara for a peaceable survival prior to the League's invasion, but they rejected that too. Still, I see your point is more aimed at the non-player interactions that put Barca in the situation it was; I just wish to point out there were options available and decisions made even considering the poor position the western realms were put in.

A fair point.

[Kainaq]

It can't deny that it seems somewhat unnecessary from an ooc stand point for both PoZ and Cathay to get involved in a war that's basically been blown out of proportion by dishonourable tactics by Coralynth, that being said I have seen a growth in the player base of OW and Sorraine since this conflict started.

[altamira]

Over the past 30 days Coralynth has lost 2 to no activity and gained 2. I see no change. As a member of coralynth I have no problem with as ass whooping ooc but we would could lose a war to OW alone. Yet it's almost worse having everyone say we're treacherous dbags and murderating sorraine for? Staying sassy? Anyway I'm not sure where I'm going with this but I just hope you all know where you're going with this.

[Chenier]

Okay. That's a fair distinction. I would add that Luria was in negotiations with Barca, Fissoa, and D'hara for a peaceable survival prior to the League's invasion, but they rejected that too. Still, I see your point is more aimed at the non-player interactions that put Barca in the situation it was; I just wish to point out there were options available and decisions made even considering the poor position the western realms were put in.

Luria was beat up. It had lost a number of regions to a number of realms. Asylon was coming in. Astrum and Swordfell had not participated yet. It looked, back then, that we were gaining momentum and that a sizable victory was at hand. But Asylon was left on their own andSwordfell never came in (many league rulers really could have treated them both better...), and Astrum took a very long time to get involved. Luria's offer of "carve out League realms instead" just wasn't acceptable. The League had already lost a ton of their land.

[Vita`]

Luria was beat up. It had lost a number of regions to a number of realms. Asylon was coming in. Luria's offer of "carve out League realms instead" just wasn't acceptable. The League had already lost a ton of their land.

Not quite. At the time of negotiations, before Barca and the League invaded Luria, Luria had lost outlying southern provinces (Moon Bay, Vaal in Sun Hall specifically, probably some southern parts  Sky Hall), and most of Earth Hall (including Poryatu, Poryatown, Flying Hongrns, Girich, Mattan Dews, Lupa Lapu, Dantooine). To the same monsters that hit every realm. Not 'to a number of realms'. That was *after* initial negotiations broke down in lieu of a military invasion. Luria's offer to Barca was for D'hara and Fissoa to *share* the burden of Barca's survival, to which Luria was discussing providing southern Sun Hall regions (including Aveston) to Barca. This, because Luria was *also* trying to manage the survival of Niselur and Asylon within Sun and/or Sky Hall. The League's response was 'shove it, surprise invasion, break treaties, rape' we want one of your cities. All fine IC actions, someone has to play bad guys, just pointing out it didn't engender much positivity in return. But this puts in perspective 'League lost a ton of land' in light of the League proportionally still possessing more land that Luria but demanding Luria give up more and more of their realm. Again, this is perfectly fine ICly, but OOCly we can at least recognize what is.

I won't say Luria's enemies didn't make decisions that made sense from their perspective - I'm just saying they made those choices and those decisions had the consequences of those realms' deaths. Anyway, this is a bit of a distraction from the original point of Barca's death due to non-player created situations as opposed to my point of player choices also contributing to their deaths.

NOTE: Mods please split this Dwilight tangent off of FEI's board?

[Chenier]

Not quite. At the time of negotiations, before Barca and the League invaded Luria, Luria had lost outlying southern provinces (Moon Bay, Vaal in Sun Hall specifically, probably some southern parts  Sky Hall), and most of Earth Hall (including Poryatu, Poryatown, Flying Hongrns, Girich, Mattan Dews, Lupa Lapu, Dantooine). To the same monsters that hit every realm. Not 'to a number of realms'. That was *after* initial negotiations broke down in lieu of a military invasion. Luria's offer to Barca was for D'hara and Fissoa to *share* the burden of Barca's survival, to which Luria was discussing providing southern Sun Hall regions (including Aveston) to Barca. This, because Luria was *also* trying to manage the survival of Niselur and Asylon within Sun and/or Sky Hall. The League's response was 'shove it, surprise invasion, break treaties, rape' we want one of your cities. All fine IC actions, someone has to play bad guys, just pointing out it didn't engender much positivity in return. But this puts in perspective 'League lost a ton of land' in light of the League proportionally still possessing more land that Luria but demanding Luria give up more and more of their realm. Again, this is perfectly fine ICly, but OOCly we can at least recognize what is.

I won't say Luria's enemies didn't make decisions that made sense from their perspective - I'm just saying they made those choices and those decisions had the consequences of those realms' deaths. Anyway, this is a bit of a distraction from the original point of Barca's death due to non-player created situations as opposed to my point of player choices also contributing to their deaths.

NOTE: Mods please split this Dwilight tangent off of FEI's board?

I don't recall Aveston before offered to Barca before they were there. After all, that required some dev intervention, no? Townslands can't usually be capitals, that's why we wanted Shinnen.

[Vita`]

It was offered in the negotiations prior to the invasion.

You are right that it couldn't have been the capital.

At the time, I incorrectly believed townslands *could* be declared capitals hence later on in the invasion's early days, Seoras being very serious about removing Barca from Shinnen Purlieus so it couldn't be declared their capital, and then D'hara from Shinnen Purlieus, so that it couldn't be given to Barca to be made their capital.

I don't believe the fact that Barca couldn't have a capital in townslands was mentioned in negotiations (of course, this was all back in May/June of last year...), just that they wanted Shinnen and that D'hara and Fissoa refused to provide a single region for Barca.

[Chenier]

It was offered in the negotiations prior to the invasion.

You are right that it couldn't have been the capital.

At the time, I incorrectly believed townslands *could* be declared capitals hence later on in the invasion's early days, Seoras being very serious about removing Barca from Shinnen Purlieus so it couldn't be declared their capital, and then D'hara from Shinnen Purlieus, so that it couldn't be given to Barca to be made their capital.

I don't believe the fact that Barca couldn't have a capital in townslands was mentioned in negotiations (of course, this was all back in May/June of last year...), just that they wanted Shinnen and that D'hara and Fissoa refused to provide a single region for Barca.

Well, maybe we didn't bring it up because we assumed you knew as well? The only time a townsland had ever been made capital before was due to Tom's interference to save his favorite realm, Outer Tilog. I certainly never imagined they'd make a townsland capital for Barca, and I'm sure I wasn't the only one. Shinnen was the only choice. And from Shinnen, Fissoa could maybe have given a region... the desert? Barca didn't have many nobles left, so it wasn'T really worth giving more than a city and a few adjacent regions. D'Hara's regions were too far from Shinnen to give anything, and those eastern regions are crap anyways. D'Hara had already lost half of its economy with the loss of the West, it wasn't going to just give up and surrender half of what was left without trying something elsewhere first...

[Indirik]

It happened on EC once. Eleador? Or Coimbra? Anyway, i know it happened on EC. Dunno about the colonies.

[Lorgan]

Drachenwald!

Back in those good old days you could colony TO any region.

[Wolfang]

Heh. I used to play in Barca and recruited just about 12 new players to that realm in the end (and those on their turn invited more players). The 'peace deals' we were receiving from Luria and through the Southern League were being stretched and stretched, so much that Barca was trying to fight off hordes of massive monster CS (I think we broke the record at one point). Even when Asylon was already in Corsanctum (and seemed to be making headway), Luria kept wanting to 'negotiate'. There was no option, the leaders of the realm decided we wouldn't die out fighting monster hordes, if we kept 'negotiating' about how Barca could 'just be helped by D'Hara (who was losing its core regions) and Fissoa' they could 'why don't your allies give u some regions', whilst 50% of the previous Luria Novan regions were rogue  . If we had kept 'negotiating' we would have lost all of our already depleted armies and would have had to assimilate into another realm, or into Luria Nova itself, which would have been the end of Barca.

So we obviously had to make a move. The rest of the story is that of Luria Nova beating on a dead horse (we couldn't reinforce, kept being teleported back to the west, no gold, just plain boring in general) for several IRL months which has resulted in 90% of the second most populous realm in Dwilight to stop playing. Sad story. We used to have so many RP's and letters written constantly in that realm, it's a shame that OOC'ly people here don't realise that this game would have been better allowing Barca into the western tip of Luria and Asylon into what was Corsanctum. These were the most vibrant realms, guys sometimes you have to look further than your IC to save the game you are all complaining is losing players every day. Think of how much funner the game would have been.

[Glaumring the Fox]

http://i.imgur.com/2lVFxIa.jpg