Author Topic: Why can't priests fight?  (Read 11362 times)

Scarlett

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Why can't priests fight?
« Topic Start: February 16, 2013, 05:08:36 PM »
I ask out of ignorance as I've never played a priest. I get that the 'priest game' is meant to be meaningfully different than the regular game and am fine with that.

But medieval priests can and did fight, some quite famously (like Adhemar du Puy on the First Crusade, who may as well have been the basis for every RPG mace-wielding 'cleric' ever seen)

They even had special titles for when they held land and owed secular fealty - Prince Bishops. More common in the HRE than France or England but it did happen.

It should be a perfectly valid choice not to do so (as most priests were content to be fat and happy without putting themselves at risk) but what is the rationale for preventing it?

vonGenf

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Re: Why can't priests fight?
« Reply #1: February 16, 2013, 05:17:22 PM »
'Priest' is not a title, it is a description of what you do for a living. A more fitting description may be preacher.

Religious titles can be given to any member of the religion through the religion rank system. "Prince Bishop" is a rank that both warriors and priests can attain.

If you want to be a fighting mace-wielding ordained person, then you are a warrior who fights for his religion.

You can even oscillate between warrior and priest on a pretty regular basis, and I have seen many characters do that quite effectively, They can be roleplayed as the crusader-monk type who picks up his sword to go fight heathens when needed, but remains a priest when at home for long periods of time.
After all it's a roleplaying game.

Penchant

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Re: Why can't priests fight?
« Reply #2: February 16, 2013, 05:23:48 PM »
I ask out of ignorance as I've never played a priest. I get that the 'priest game' is meant to be meaningfully different than the regular game and am fine with that.

But medieval priests can and did fight, some quite famously (like Adhemar du Puy on the First Crusade, who may as well have been the basis for every RPG mace-wielding 'cleric' ever seen)

They even had special titles for when they held land and owed secular fealty - Prince Bishops. More common in the HRE than France or England but it did happen.

It should be a perfectly valid choice not to do so (as most priests were content to be fat and happy without putting themselves at risk) but what is the rationale for preventing it?
Game balance. Instant travel plus troops is a huge imbalance.
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Anaris

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Re: Why can't priests fight?
« Reply #3: February 16, 2013, 05:29:23 PM »
Pretty much what vonGenf says. If you are a Priest in BattleMaster, you are one whose primary concern is preaching.

There is absolutely nothing that says that a Warrior (or any other class) cannot be deeply religious and have a strong desire to see his religion spread among the nobility.

However, for game balance, no one character can have access to all the different class functions at once. You might as well ask why Warriors can't Survey Administration, or why Traders can't murder militia.
Timothy Collett

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Scarlett

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Re: Why can't priests fight?
« Reply #4: February 16, 2013, 06:18:05 PM »
What is the point of instant travel? Why is it integral to the priest game?

Medieval priests whose primary concern was the priesthood still took up arms. It was not their primary function, but they did not stop being a priest; Adhemar le Puy did not stop being a Bishop and become Sir Adhemar while on Crusade.

Anaris

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Re: Why can't priests fight?
« Reply #5: February 16, 2013, 06:29:12 PM »
What is the point of instant travel? Why is it integral to the priest game?

Medieval priests whose primary concern was the priesthood still took up arms. It was not their primary function, but they did not stop being a priest; Adhemar le Puy did not stop being a Bishop and become Sir Adhemar while on Crusade.

And there is nothing stopping a Bishop of whatever religion you want from changing class to Warrior and joining his brethren on a Crusade. He just can't try to kill the peasants one minute, and try to convert them the next.

And before you say that it would have been historically accurate for him to have done so: tough beans. There are plenty of things that would have been historically accurate that we prevent you from doing for game balance reasons. Like, say, handing your buddy 100 gold coins while you're out on a long campaign and he forgot to bring enough to pay his unit.
Timothy Collett

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Vellos

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Re: Why can't priests fight?
« Reply #6: February 16, 2013, 06:37:57 PM »
What is the point of instant travel? Why is it integral to the priest game?

Medieval priests whose primary concern was the priesthood still took up arms. It was not their primary function, but they did not stop being a priest; Adhemar le Puy did not stop being a Bishop and become Sir Adhemar while on Crusade.

Because nerfing the priest class EVEN MORE and removing basically its #1 perk would be lame.

Plus, Priest/Diplomat is a way more common Medieval trope than Priest/Warrior, and so incentivization Priest/Diplomat makes way more sense than incentivizing Priest/Warrior, and fast travel is a super big incentive for that.
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vonGenf

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Re: Why can't priests fight?
« Reply #7: February 16, 2013, 07:09:21 PM »
Medieval priests whose primary concern was the priesthood still took up arms. It was not their primary function, but they did not stop being a priest; Adhemar le Puy did not stop being a Bishop and become Sir Adhemar while on Crusade.

He did remain ordained, and as I say that's not a problem as he can be of any religious rank (even Elder Rank).

However, he was not preaching in his parish church while he was swinging a sword. If you have a sword in your hand, you're a warrior.

In real life he could switch from one to another in 5 minutes if needed. In BM, you cannot switch more than once every 7 days. That seems reasonable to me given the turn structure of the game.
After all it's a roleplaying game.

Ender

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Re: Why can't priests fight?
« Reply #8: February 16, 2013, 07:36:04 PM »
Technically, you can become a Martyr. It's just the Hero Class with a fancy roleplay name attached to it though. I also can't remember the conditions for it or if it's even still there since I stopped playing my Priest. Given how much you can get away with, you can also roleplay yourself leading the unwashed masses as if they were the troops under your command. Cid did that during his various crusades and inquisitions.

Otherwise, I'd say the obvious reason is the same most others have said: game mechanics won't allow it.

Chenier

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Re: Why can't priests fight?
« Reply #9: February 16, 2013, 08:29:14 PM »
I really do feel that we need a religious subclass for warriors. Knights should be able to actively get involved in religions as more than money bags. They should be able to get a crusader subclass, similar to the hero subclass.
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Perth

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Re: Why can't priests fight?
« Reply #10: February 16, 2013, 08:34:54 PM »
Allow Priests to stir up peasants in the name of their religion to either directly volunteer into other Knight's units or to full recruitment centers?
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Anaris

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Re: Why can't priests fight?
« Reply #11: February 16, 2013, 08:35:16 PM »
I really do feel that we need a religious subclass for warriors. Knights should be able to actively get involved in religions as more than money bags. They should be able to get a crusader subclass, similar to the hero subclass.

And what do you think it should do?

That can't be done perfectly well purely in RP, I mean.
Timothy Collett

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Scarlett

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Re: Why can't priests fight?
« Reply #12: February 16, 2013, 09:43:00 PM »
Quote
And before you say that it would have been historically accurate for him to have done so: tough beans.

No question even mentioning historical accuracy would be complete without Anaris condescending to explain a gameplay compromise to the unwashed masses. Yes, I get it.

I am asking - again - why instant travel is a feature particular to the priest class. I am not asking that it be taken away or expanded or even changed. I suppose I don't understand it: you have here a game whose entire functional basis is turns and hours per day. You then make an exception to the system governing the whole game. I presume this is for a good reason, and so I am curious what that reason is.

If I were actually lobbying to change the system at all I wouldn't really come at it this way - I'd probably suggest that once somebody becomes a priest, they can't stop becoming a priest without a big penalty (being defrocked is a big deal). A historically accurate priesthood, given that 'historically accurate' with a non-Catholic religious system is already kind of a red herring, would be one where joining the priesthood gave you certain additional skills and bonuses but also prohibited you from certain things that non-priests get. Maybe you can't ever be a Duke, for instance (since it's meaningless to take away inheritance). Or some other recognition that you serve two masters and so are removed from the natural order of things.

It just wouldn't occur to me to change up how hours work.

Draco Tanos

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Re: Why can't priests fight?
« Reply #13: February 16, 2013, 09:51:06 PM »
Why?  Were there never Prince-Archbishops?  Were they not essentially Dukes?

And how would such restrictions make sense in theocracies?  Or even monarchies with a more religious slant?

Chenier

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Re: Why can't priests fight?
« Reply #14: February 16, 2013, 09:55:54 PM »
And what do you think it should do?

That can't be done perfectly well purely in RP, I mean.

Ability to influence follower count (to a lesser effect than preaching, obviously, but more discreet as well: perhaps automatic conversion of peasants whenever the unit performs well in battle), construction of shrines or other infrastructure of similar working, ability to hunt down heretics (similar to looting), ability to call in favors from high-follower regions (such as cheaper repairs or entertainment), greater morale bonus when visiting temples of the faith, morale bonuses when sacking heathen temples, ability to convert foreign nobles if an elder.

Can't change out of the subclass, as with heroes, and needs to be part of a religion: loses access to all special abilities if the religion dies, until he picks up another at least.

That's the kind of stuff I'd like to see.
« Last Edit: February 16, 2013, 10:04:27 PM by Chénier »
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