Author Topic: Noble density per realm - Dwilight  (Read 81331 times)

Buffalkill

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Re: Noble density per realm - Dwilight
« Reply #15: April 10, 2014, 02:25:56 AM »
I'm sorry, but this just doesn't make any sense.

Sure, you may find being a knight boring. But there's more to do as a knight now than there has been at any other time in BattleMaster's history, including the peak of our growth around six years ago.

That said, I do want to make all aspects of the game, especially being a knight, more interesting and fun. The way I'm planning to do that right now is to make war more prevalent and less frustrating.
Talking about the glory days of 6 years ago means nothing to new players like me. Whatever happened in 2008 to increase recruitment/retention is neither here nor there because by Tom's own assessment the game has stagnated since then. If you knew the formula to increase player retention/recruitment, then the game wouldn't be losing 20 players a month. I'm in the demographic of new players, or at least the fairly new, and your grip on new players is tenuous. You can keep dumping negativity whenever players try to tell you something and dismiss it as illogical, and see where that gets you, or you can open up to the ideas of outsiders and possibly improve the game with their help.

Anaris

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Re: Noble density per realm - Dwilight
« Reply #16: April 10, 2014, 02:38:34 AM »
Talking about the glory days of 6 years ago means nothing to new players like me. Whatever happened in 2008 to increase recruitment/retention is neither here nor there because by Tom's own assessment the game has stagnated since then. If you knew the formula to increase player retention/recruitment, then the game wouldn't be losing 20 players a month. I'm in the demographic of new players, or at least the fairly new, and your grip on new players is tenuous. You can keep dumping negativity whenever players try to tell you something and dismiss it as illogical, and see where that gets you, or you can open up to the ideas of outsiders and possibly improve the game with their help.

I'm just trying to apply logic, Buffakill.

There are a number of things that have changed since 2008. None of those (that I can see) had any significant negative impact on the amount of different fun things that normal knights can do. Thus, any assertion that the lack of fun things for normal knights to do is a major factor in the decline in the playerbase needs some kind of significant specific evidence to support it. I do not see that you have provided this.

Again, though, I completely agree that it's a good idea to add stuff for knights to do, and that doing so will help with retention. I just don't agree that it's an important part of what changed to cause the decline in the playerbase.
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OFaolain

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Re: Noble density per realm - Dwilight
« Reply #17: April 10, 2014, 02:39:10 AM »
I think there are actually a fair number of things to do as a knight; as a knight you can still lead an army, you can still take part in intrigue, you can still be a diplomat/ambassador, you can still take part in religion, and you can still roleplay.  You can still be elected to government office in realms that have such elections (which is partly why I think many people enjoy republics, just look at Barca's noble count).  The only thing separating a lord from a knight is the necessity of managing food (which can be delegated) and the ability to move the region to another duchy or realm.

When the knight game gets boring is when the upper echelons of control (Dukes, Realm Council in particular) don't include the knights in councils relevant to their interests.  So part of the knight game being fun is other players allowing you to participate in that higher-level planning and foreign policy talk; an old character of mine was in Astrum's high council and it was great, but when all the dialogue takes placed behind closed doors it is significantly less great for everyone else.

Speaking as a player who has played in realms with extreme inactivity and low player count (Niselur before Arrakis's rebellion was boring), having more nobles concentrated in a smaller area is extremely positive, because when your realm is 10 regions and you have 12 nobles but only 4 of them ever have anything to say the entire *game* is not fun, not just the knight game.
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Buffalkill

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Re: Noble density per realm - Dwilight
« Reply #18: April 10, 2014, 03:34:22 AM »
I think there are actually a fair number of things to do as a knight; as a knight you can still lead an army, you can still take part in intrigue, you can still be a diplomat/ambassador, you can still take part in religion, and you can still roleplay.  You can still be elected to government office in realms that have such elections (which is partly why I think many people enjoy republics, just look at Barca's noble count). 
Not so. As a newbie you don't have enough prestige for most of the things you mentioned. You can't change class, you can't be appointed lord, and you can't stand for election for govt office, until you reach a certain level of prestige, I think 10.  And even if they hang in there long enough to get 10 prestige, it's still highly unlikely that they'd get appointed/elected to anything.

Buffalkill

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Re: Noble density per realm - Dwilight
« Reply #19: April 10, 2014, 04:12:23 AM »
Thus, any assertion that the lack of fun things for normal knights to do is a major factor in the decline in the playerbase needs some kind of significant specific evidence to support it. I do not see that you have provided this.
Player testimony IS evidence, but if you want spreadsheets I'll gladly create those too. Just give me the data. I asked several months ago for player retention data based on things like time in the game, characters' ranks and positions, and probably other data points that I don't remember right now. With relevant data and some smart analysis, we can zero in on what causes players to drop out. I suspect the drop-outs would fall into a few main categories: newbies who sign up and drop-out shortly thereafter, old-timers who have enjoyed the game but feel they've gone as far as they can go with it, rage quitters, and players who drop-out for personal reasons not related to the game. The next step would be to come up with targeted strategies that address the different reasons people quit.


Suppose we were able to determine that newbies who spend 10 mins/day in the first week are 50% less likely to drop-out than those who spend only 5 mins/day. If that were so, then we could start brainstorming ways to keep the newbies engaged for just a few minutes longer.


I also proposed a way to collect data from players so they could give feedback about how much fun they're having at any given time so the devs could monitor the changes over time and correlate them with significant events, such as new features and in-game events. That was several months ago and I assume it's been consigned to the graveyard of dead feature requests.

OFaolain

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Re: Noble density per realm - Dwilight
« Reply #20: April 10, 2014, 04:54:22 AM »
Not so. As a newbie you don't have enough prestige for most of the things you mentioned. You can't change class, you can't be appointed lord, and you can't stand for election for govt office, until you reach a certain level of prestige, I think 10.  And even if they hang in there long enough to get 10 prestige, it's still highly unlikely that they'd get appointed/elected to anything.

You said "as a knight" before, not "as a newbie".  "As a knight" there are plenty of things to do, and if it's unlikely that you'd get elected or appointed to anything then you really don't have anyone to blame but yourself.  You are not ingratiating yourself with the right people, you are not making the most of your BM experience; I was in the game for a week on my first ever character before I became vice-marshal of an army because I wrote a roleplay where I implied saving the marshal's life (he was wounded) in a battle against undead; sticking by that character got me a duchy eventually before I got busy with other things and wandered off.  Join a religion, be active in your realm's politics, speak out against things your character hates or in favor of things your character likes; take chances, as a knight you have nothing to lose and an entire story to write.

As a newbie your options consist largely of doing civil work and learning where you stand in your realm and in any religion you might join; honestly just getting a handle on what the heck is going on is enough for the first week, considering how this game is paced.  As a newbie you gain prestige and honor fairly rapidly, especially in combat.  That's why wars are so important for new player retention, because it gives them a thing to do that gives quick H/P and helps them demonstrate reliability when their enthusiasm for the game is likely high.  And they are an excellent opportunity to build engagement in new players because it's something that they can be included in right from the start.
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Buffalkill

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Re: Noble density per realm - Dwilight
« Reply #21: April 10, 2014, 05:42:06 AM »

Last week my character was barred from running in an election because he still didn't have the prestige 6 months after I created him. Despite having been arguably the most active player in the most ice-affected realm on Atamara, despite having fought countless battles against ice monsters, countless battles against Darkan soldiers, having been imprisoned 3 times, and despite having been lord of 2 regions, he still was not able to even be a candidate for a govt position. But this is getting off-topic.

If you want to increase the player base, you need to make the game attractive to newbies, and your solutions offer nothing to newbies. My first character when I joined BM had to travel for about a week to get to the capital to recruit a unit. I'm not sure why I didn't quit in that first week, but I was very tempted to, and at various times thereafter. So yes, being a knight is boring, and being a newbie-knight is super-boring. You can argue all day that it's my fault, but at the end of the day, blaming me and players like me doesn't stop the player base shrinking.

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Re: Noble density per realm - Dwilight
« Reply #22: April 10, 2014, 05:55:52 AM »
Last week my character was barred from running in an election because he still didn't have the prestige 6 months after I created him. Despite having been arguably the most active player in the most ice-affected realm on Atamara, despite having fought countless battles against ice monsters, countless battles against Darkan soldiers, having been imprisoned 3 times, and despite having been lord of 2 regions, he still was not able to even be a candidate for a govt position. But this is getting off-topic.

If you want to increase the player base, you need to make the game attractive to newbies, and your solutions offer nothing to newbies. My first character when I joined BM had to travel for about a week to get to the capital to recruit a unit. I'm not sure why I didn't quit in that first week, but I was very tempted to, and at various times thereafter. So yes, being a knight is boring, and being a newbie-knight is super-boring. You can argue all day that it's my fault, but at the end of the day, blaming me and players like me doesn't stop the player base shrinking.

Making people start in the capital might be a good idea. I had a friend who had trouble finding a capital and ended up quitting the game.

About playing as knights being boring, you are the one who opened the can Buffalkill. Nobody is blaming you for the shrinking player base.

Some people are not being constructive here. The deed is done. The ice won't just disappear even if people cry and complain. It is here to stay for at least another 5 months until the results come in.

What people should be discussing is with the reduced regions, what can be done to increase the character interaction or how to make it easier for new people to join in the general realm discussions.

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Re: Noble density per realm - Dwilight
« Reply #23: April 10, 2014, 06:55:05 AM »
Talking about the glory days of 6 years ago means nothing to new players like me. Whatever happened in 2008 to increase recruitment/retention is neither here nor there because by Tom's own assessment the game has stagnated since then. If you knew the formula to increase player retention/recruitment, then the game wouldn't be losing 20 players a month. I'm in the demographic of new players, or at least the fairly new, and your grip on new players is tenuous. You can keep dumping negativity whenever players try to tell you something and dismiss it as illogical, and see where that gets you, or you can open up to the ideas of outsiders and possibly improve the game with their help.
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Anaris

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Re: Noble density per realm - Dwilight
« Reply #24: April 10, 2014, 01:54:02 PM »
Player testimony IS evidence, but if you want spreadsheets I'll gladly create those too. Just give me the data. I asked several months ago for player retention data based on things like time in the game, characters' ranks and positions, and probably other data points that I don't remember right now. With relevant data and some smart analysis, we can zero in on what causes players to drop out. I suspect the drop-outs would fall into a few main categories: newbies who sign up and drop-out shortly thereafter, old-timers who have enjoyed the game but feel they've gone as far as they can go with it, rage quitters, and players who drop-out for personal reasons not related to the game. The next step would be to come up with targeted strategies that address the different reasons people quit.

And none of that would prove what you've been claiming: that there has been an increase in new players leaving since the game's peak, and that that is caused by a lack of interesting things for newbies to do. Because a) we don't have statistical data going back 6+ years, and b) even if we did, it wouldn't include the reasons people left. Just because someone leaves a week into the game doesn't mean they would have stayed if there had been 17 extra buttons for them to click that gave them shiny points.

BattleMaster is a very niche game. It isn't for everyone. I would expect many people who try it out to decide that they don't actually like it within a week or two, regardless of how much easier we make the learning curve and more fun we make the new player experience. And yes, this is a problem, but it's not one we can solve without turning BattleMaster into WoW or DotA. Which we (obviously) can't and won't.
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Buffalkill

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Re: Noble density per realm - Dwilight
« Reply #25: April 10, 2014, 02:42:49 PM »
And none of that would prove what you've been claiming: that there has been an increase in new players leaving since the game's peak, and that that is caused by a lack of interesting things for newbies to do. Because a) we don't have statistical data going back 6+ years, and b) even if we did, it wouldn't include the reasons people left. Just because someone leaves a week into the game doesn't mean they would have stayed if there had been 17 extra buttons for them to click that gave them shiny points.

BattleMaster is a very niche game. It isn't for everyone. I would expect many people who try it out to decide that they don't actually like it within a week or two, regardless of how much easier we make the learning curve and more fun we make the new player experience. And yes, this is a problem, but it's not one we can solve without turning BattleMaster into WoW or DotA. Which we (obviously) can't and won't.
That's not at all what I said. I just said that being a lowly knight is boring, and I think that the density figures posted at the top of this thread support that because, they show that we have about 50% more lords than knights. Your plan reduces the number of lords by reducing the number of regions, but it remains to be seen whether the former lords will still have an interest after the dust settles and they've been demoted to lowly knights, and whether new knights will stay in the game given that there will be fewer opportunities for them to get "promoted".


Also, I'm not asking for data going back 6+ years. Whatever was happening back then (apparently it awesome) has really no bearing on the present situation. And I didn't ask you to provide the players' reasons for leaving, as I don't expect that you would have a record of that. I asked for player data that I assume you do have, because a large enough sample would reveal certain patterns that would provide insight into player behaviour. You keep saying you want evidence, well this is what evidence would look like.

Buffalkill

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Re: Noble density per realm - Dwilight
« Reply #26: April 10, 2014, 02:54:58 PM »
One question: Is button clicking what makes battlemaster fun to you? If not, please state what does make battlemaster fun.
Ignoring your sarcasm, it's the combination of decision-making and roleplaying. Different roles have their own specific decisions to make. Knights have very few decisions compared to other types of characters.


I remember when I joined BM and first took an estate, the message said something like "Right now there's not much to do here because we're just getting the estate system up and running, but there will be more to do later." I think it would be great if they would follow through with that.

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Re: Noble density per realm - Dwilight
« Reply #27: April 10, 2014, 08:27:17 PM »
...I think that the density figures posted at the top of this thread support that because, they show that we have about 50% more lords than knights. Your plan reduces the number of lords by reducing the number of regions, but it remains to be seen whether the former lords will still have an interest after the dust settles and they've been demoted to lowly knights, and whether new knights will stay in the game given that there will be fewer opportunities for them to get "promoted".

...Whatever was happening back then (apparently it awesome) has really no bearing on the present situation.

My perspective on that is that it does have bearing. When it wasn't easy to become a lord or council member, let alone ruler, battlemaster was more fun - the process of moving upward in political jockeying. That's because there was a healthy density of competent competitive players both internally and externally. Becoming a lord used to be a big deal and duke an even bigger deal. Now one can barely find lord for regions anymore.  And on  the other hand - its too easy, to the point of boring,  to gain power in a realm these  days. It comes back to the old idea that anything that is easily gained is not valued highly while that which required struggle to gain is all the more previous,  especially when it may be lost again.

It's certainly true that it is more difficult for new characters to gain prestige. I think for the levels of warfare islands face today it doesn't provide the same h/p gains as the much higher warfare rates of before, making it take longer for new characters to gain necessary stats for positions. I've certainly experienced this myself with a character going for months without gaining 10 prestige (he acquired some unique items to make up for it). Hell, he went months without getting to 3 prestige without unique items. With more dense nobles in a tighter space, it should encourage ambition within a realm to take that region over there for whatever food needing,  old claim, religious effort,  strategic aim etc. reason. Also, less space to march.

I've wondered if new characters (or new accounts) shouldn't only be exposed to the top few communicative and/or war-active realms in Tim's new ratios. That would certainly bring players to realms more likely to expose them to a good battlemaster experience as well as encourage realms to be more involved and/or fight more wars.

Of course, I still think three nobles for new families is a better idea than our current two nobles.

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Re: Noble density per realm - Dwilight
« Reply #28: April 10, 2014, 08:35:33 PM »
MUST HAVE SHINY POINTS.


Honor: X
Prestige: X
Shiny Points: X

Implement plz.
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Anaris

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Re: Noble density per realm - Dwilight
« Reply #29: April 10, 2014, 08:38:34 PM »
MUST HAVE SHINY POINTS.


Honor: X
Prestige: X
Shiny Points: X

Implement plz.

How about these?
Timothy Collett

"The only thing you can't trade for your heart's desire...is your heart." "You are what you do.  Choose again, and change." "One of these days, someone's gonna plug you, and you're going to die saying, 'What did I say? What did I say?'"  ~ Miles Naismith Vorkosigan