Monster Problems

[Anaris]

Well, I can guarantee you they're not deliberately targeting Sabadell. As I believe I've mentioned, I want Westgard to be viable, even if it is still difficult.

I suspect that right now, the problem is that Sabadell is the most exposed non-rogue region—it borders a lot of rogue regions, so each time a rogue group wanders near it, they notice it's there and immediately move to it. Eidulb, on the other hand, has a donut, so only monsters that have already wandered into that will target it.

I think the "always move to smash an adjacent non-rogue region" part of their code is going to need some tweaking.

I also think there still aren't enough groups getting long-distance targets, when that should be reducing the number of groups in the West that are wandering around and ending up bashing their heads on Westgard.

[Chenier]

Yea, I believe you. I don't think Sabadell specifically, or Westgard generally, it being specially targetted.

But I do think that this example displays an issue with monster behavior.

Also... the monsters that attacked Sabadell, at first, also greatly came from owned regions. They had occupied Gelene Outskirts for a while until they simply decided to screw it, and all aggregate to Sabadell instead. Though I'll give it to you, monsters moving from owned regions to other owned regions saved our butts many times. As did the rogues moving out of Sabadell and right back in constantly. There was over 100 000CS of rogues in the vicinity of Sabadell for a long time, most of it "in" Sabadell, but we kept facing much smaller hordes (typically around 20k, though some larger ones) as many of these rogues kept leaving.

I know you want Westgard to be viable, but I do wonder... with Dwilight's population as it is, do we even have enough nobles to cover more than just the eastern regions? It feels unlikely to me that the rogues spawning in the West can really curb eastern expansion, at least not without wiping off Westgard in the process. Felt like we had a decent situation when I first joined, and then Luria and Avernus both barely had anything, D'Hara and Madina didn't have the western holdings they do now, and there were many rogue regions in the East. Does make me wonder if we have enough nobles to even populate only half of the continent, without any western holdings whatsoever.

[Vita`]

Well, I can guarantee you they're not deliberately targeting Sabadell. As I believe I've mentioned, I want Westgard to be viable, even if it is still difficult.

I suspect that right now, the problem is that Sabadell is the most exposed non-rogue region—it borders a lot of rogue regions, so each time a rogue group wanders near it, they notice it's there and immediately move to it. Eidulb, on the other hand, has a donut, so only monsters that have already wandered into that will target it.

I think the "always move to smash an adjacent non-rogue region" part of their code is going to need some tweaking.

I also think there still aren't enough groups getting long-distance targets, when that should be reducing the number of groups in the West that are wandering around and ending up bashing their heads on Westgard.

I agree with this assessment, particularly that Sabadell is most exposed non-rogue region, 'always move to smash adjacent non-rogue region' code needing tweaked, and not enough groups getting long-distance targets.

[Chenier]

Would you guys consider tweaking the polygon for Gelene and its Outskirts, to transfer a bit of the coastal area to Gelene, giving us a direct access to the sea zone (Channel of Gelene) from the capital? When Gelene Outskirts got occupied by the rogues, we got totally screwed. Our army had no means of refitting without killing itself, and allies could not land anywhere near to support. The lack of a city to put a harbor in also makes these travels more expensive. And with an access to the seas, would you consider an additional sea route, linking Gelene to Aegir?

I think those are easy to implement modifications that could give us a hand in our efforts, as well as making it easier for some eastern realms to get involved. Gelene feels like a bad place to be based in, to me (especially compared to other potential locations like Eidulb, especially, and Paisly, to a lesser degree), but this small tweak would help.

[Anaris]

Frankly, I'm seriously considering eliminating donut regions entirely. They were an interesting experiment, but unfortunately I believe they have failed.

However, I won't be making any map changes in the short term.

I believe I can make sufficient changes to monster behaviour tomorrow to make a real difference, and I'd like to see how they play out, at least for a week or so, before making any other large changes.

I will, however, make one further note: There's a metric crapton of gold ready for the looting in the rurals north and west of the mountains, if the changes can buy you enough breathing room to send an expedition out there.

[Wimpie]

Frankly, I'm seriously considering eliminating donut regions entirely. They were an interesting experiment, but unfortunately I believe they have failed.

...

Yeah I totally agree with that.

[Anaris]

I've made some of the changes I outlined: monsters will now have a much lower chance of attacking high-density realms, and more groups will take it into their heads to go charging off across the sea to hit random human-held regions in large bands.

Please keep me updated as to how the movement of monsters changes.

[Chenier]

I've made some of the changes I outlined: monsters will now have a much lower chance of attacking high-density realms, and more groups will take it into their heads to go charging off across the sea to hit random human-held regions in large bands.

Please keep me updated as to how the movement of monsters changes.

Looks like there's a metric crapton of them in Paisland now.

[Anaris]

Looks like there's a metric crapton of them in Paisland now.

Hm, yeah. Not as many as I had show up in a few different regions during my testing, though.

At one point, there were going to be 150k+ CS hitting Eidulb—all from a single region.

[Chenier]

Hm, yeah. Not as many as I had show up in a few different regions during my testing, though.

At one point, there were going to be 150k+ CS hitting Eidulb—all from a single region.

Really? Isn't Astrum one of the densest realms? It's one of the most populous, at least, though it's quite large.

Also, that's brutal. XD Is that to target Eidulb itself, or only to transit towards eastern targets?

[Anaris]

Really? Isn't Astrum one of the densest realms? It's one of the most populous, at least, though it's quite large.

It's not especially dense...though it may be more dense than the average on the continent, I forget.

Also, that's brutal. XD Is that to target Eidulb itself, or only to transit towards eastern targets?

That was to move to Eidulb, and then figure out what to do from there, IIRC.

But this was all just in local testing; that level of monolithic movement was one of the things I wanted to do away with, and I believe I've been successful.

[Chenier]

Alright, good to know.

For the looting potential, also good to know. Though many mountain regions are starving, and with their atrocious travel times, risky to loot (provisions won't last the trip in and out).

[Beldragos]

Also, Madina has little moral high grounds to complain. Madina, D'Hara, Luria, Fissoa, and all other low-density realms have continuously expanded despite knowing that 1) they already have very low density and 2) monster spawns are regulated by density. It's just that, so far, Westgard had gotten 100% of the blowback of your expansion.

Are we playing the same game here? 

Madina has not gotten past Candiels Fields in over a year IRL.  We take the region and then get pushed back to have the hordes break against the walls of Candiels.  Then we retake the Fields to allow us to repair the walls and then it happens again.  If we do not take the Fields then the city walls would never get fixed and fall.  This is what we have been doing to survive for the last year or two since the code has been implemented.  We talk ICly about taking other lands but we only do that for IC reasons to continue fighting them but as players we know we cannot expand further

If you want realms continuously expanding look to Luria?

They hold 20 regions with 24 nobles after this happened earlier today:

Takeover   (1 hour, 5 minutes ago)
message to all nobles on Dwilight
Luria Nova has taken control of Dantooine. The region used to belong to (rogue).

It would be nice if that horde of 65K in Paisly would head their way.  Better yet, the reported horde in Paisland of 233K could send them a welcome committee.  Nothing but water between them and Luria and they can now swim ....

The hordes need to appear in the East instead of the West to answer for their expansions.  They should target expanding realms instead of the gateway realms if they are responding to said expansion. 

[Chenier]

Anaris: Might I strongly encourage the devs to make a public announcement continent-wide to inform everyone of the monster behavior tweak, so that those expansionnist low-density realms might expect a little better what'S coming for them.

Would it also be possible to know what density is being targetted as far as the monster spawns go? Under which treshhold do the monsters massively spawn?

Beldragos: That was a list of realms, it did not include the specific number for each named realms. Yes, in Madina's case, it was, mostly, the annexation of Candiel Fields. That one is a recent addition. Of the realms that have expanded, Madina did the least so. But on the other hand, when's the last time Madina declared war on someone? Had you invaded Luria while they were weak, you wouldn't have those rogues on your back today. Madina might not have gone on the wildest expansionist streak, but its passivity is also part of the reason why density is so low overall. Madina could have been removed from the map RL years ago, and things wouldn't be any different today.

D'Hara on the other hand took, on top of the western regions, many regions in the east which had not historically been theirs. Luria and Fissoa have reclaimed historical territories, but it doesn't change much to the fact that they didn't really have the densities for them anyways.

Avernus and Luria are those that *took* the most regions, but Luria also gained a ton of nobles since they lost those regions.

[Beldragos]

As of this posting, Luria has 20 regions controlled by 23 nobles.

Madina and Astrum has 14 regions with 20 and 21 Nobles respectively.

Luria has a ton of adv but they are not Nobles and should not count toward the ratio.