Astrum vs Westgard

[Anaris]

There are significant numbers of players in the realm who enjoy the Player vs Environment gameplay (probably unique in the game). That doesn't mean that people don't get frustrated when they have 10,000k+ rogues bombarding them day-in, day-out, and start to feel demoralised and overwhelmed.

Right: that's the kind of thing that was never truly intended to be more than a very rare occurrence, and it's a big part of the reason I started quietly intervening—as you note below, there's a difference between "challenge" and "unstoppable force."

But I think it's important to note that there is a proportion of players who enjoy the battle against the wilds that you get in Westgard when it's well balanced.

Good. That was, indeed, the hope and intention when we made Westgard.

More than likely, any OOC theory that's based around purposely killing of Westgard (or any realm) with the idea of forcing players to migrate to other realms is misguided.

I can assure you that no such theory has the support of the dev team.

However, from an OOC point of view, you have to wonder whether the West of Dwilight having different religious beliefs to the Bloodstars would make the place more interesting. On balance, it probably would.

That would definitely make Dwilight much more interesting.

Of course, there would need to be much more of "the West" than one constantly-beleaguered realm for it to have much of an effect.

[Sonya]

You can't win. Give up already.

I would like to see that, certainly you are too sure of your army.

Bring 20k CS to the field every 3 days and i will consider Astrum a treat.

Less than that is what Westgard faces normally.

[Gabanus family]

I would like to see that, certainly you are too sure of your army.

Bring 20k CS to the field every 3 days and i will consider Astrum a treat.

Less than that is what Westgard faces normally.

I'm pretty sure he meant it a bit different than that and was sarcastic based on the rest of his message, but I suggest we change the tone of debate away from that and when I say 'suggest' I mean otherwise I have to get involved

As to the war, I am afraid this will be a losing battle for Westgard in my opinion. Astrum has a strong army and not as 'dumb' as the monster hordes of course. But at the same time Astrum will also be hit hard in Eidulb by monsters and must protect that city as well.

I'll reply somewhere tomorrow on the notion that the 'destruction of westgard is based on misguided believes'. I don't like destroying realms and I've been in enough which did fell (I mean as we speak Oligarch is still surrounded by 5 enemies which will soon crush it) but the truth of the matter is that we still occupy too much land on Dwilight to make it densed enough and entertaining. Fighting rogue can still be done in Arnor as they'll be facing the threats that Westgard now faces, as will some citys of the island states. We don't have as many nobles anymore as we used to have and one thing or another needs to change on Dwilight in my opinion. The dissolvement of the northern alliance is one of them and I'm working on that also IC, but I think the death of Westgard (and even Madina) would be another to push the nobles East.

[Gordy77]

Why must war necessitate the destruction of one realm or another? Something must occupy the space. All things being equal between the rogues, a nice fair fight between human realms would actually be refreshing in Westgard. We are mostly irreligious though so if you are using religion as a motivator for war, I'm afraid it's just a contrivance. Push for war, fine, but don't make up excuses to destroy our realm. We've worked bloody hard at huge expense to keep it.

[Gabanus family]

Why must war necessitate the destruction of one realm or another? Something must occupy the space. All things being equal between the rogues, a nice fair fight between human realms would actually be refreshing in Westgard. We are mostly irreligious though so if you are using religion as a motivator for war, I'm afraid it's just a contrivance. Push for war, fine, but don't make up excuses to destroy our realm. We've worked bloody hard at huge expense to keep it.

Personally I think nothing should occupy the space Westgard occupies now and it would be better for Westgard to move East. The religion aspect I mentioned was my chars belief based on Seoras' teachings in ESA on the bloodflow which says that blood must flow to keep the world in balance. That blood must be from different sources, monsters, peasants, soldiers and nobles and thus it is crucial that men not only fight rogues but also each other. My char was in Barca when the big move from west to east happened and he thinks it's because of an imbalance in that bloodflow. Thus he will do all in his power to avoid it happening again and for men to fight each other the situations must be good. Right now nobles are simply spread too far apart.

To explain something concerning the monsters. The devs have explained in their updates that the higher the density of nobles vs occupied lands by realms is, the lower the spawn rate of monsters will be. So in other words, if the same amount of nobles occupy fewer lands (say westgard/madina move towards realms in the east) there will be fewer monster problems in general. On top of that the realms in the east would have more nobles actually making it possible again to fight wars. 5 nobles vs 5 nobles for instance is not really a way to fight a war. Based on those thoughts I came to the opinion that no realm should be in the West, not unless we get more players.

I agree with you fully that wars should generally not lead to the destructions of realms and throughout all my playing time you'll find that I've always advocated for realm survivals in almost all cases. As General in Sirion I wa among those very vocal about keeping Perdan alive for instance. Westgard, due to the situation on Dwilight is in this case an exception for me. I realize it is not fun to lose your realm (been there too many times and will prob soon be there again) but the current situation on Dwilight is less than idea. Player versus beast will continue, just on different borders (for that I think arnor will become perfect if you look at the map).

[BarticaBoat]

The problem has been Westgard always grew towards monster hordes. You invited the hordes to come. And these weren't even that bad. I believe the monsters track food/peasants. Because of that, Eidulb was always a target, Gelene, Aquitain, all were huge targets. But you had your eyes fixed on the big names (Shrine, Eidulb) instead of growing north to Valkyrja and into Hvergelmir and eastern lands which did not have the same monster spawn rate. You never built a stable base.

All the gold in the game cannot overcome the monsters because gold is finite and monsters are not. It was a special sort of arrogance.

Ironically, I think looting the outlying regions helped you because the monsters are probably tracking south to Golden Farrow instead. Look at the RPs from Barret Erickson, there was a huge change in monster distribution. Looting the outlying lands and making them poor monster targets made them less likely to seek out rich targets like Gelene.

My character had IC reasons to not return to Gelene so sorry I couldn't help earlier but... You tried to new school an old school scenario. Didn't work.

[Schancke]

Well then, game on 

But I have a question and a remark,
Is it customary  to announce a war in the forums before it happens IG? Sort of ruins the surprise and has many players react in character to information they don't actually possess IG.

I am one of those that probably won't go play on the east side of Dwilight. I've spent time and energy on the very basic tasks of figthing monsters. Although progress is nigh, it's where my history on Dwilight lies, and it's quite different from my two other characters. Not sure if I have the interest/time to restart in an environment much more alike EC and Beluaterra.

[Zakilevo]

Well then, game on 

But I have a question and a remark,
Is it customary  to announce a war in the forums before it happens IG? Sort of ruins the surprise and has many players react in character to information they don't actually possess IG.

I am one of those that probably won't go play on the east side of Dwilight. I've spent time and energy on the very basic tasks of figthing monsters. Although progress is nigh, it's where my history on Dwilight lies, and it's quite different from my two other characters. Not sure if I have the interest/time to restart in an environment much more alike EC and Beluaterra.

You can still fight monsters in realms that border west Dwilight or a large chunk of rogue regions.

[Foxglove]

Personally I think nothing should occupy the space Westgard occupies now and it would be better for Westgard to move East. The religion aspect I mentioned was my chars belief based on Seoras' teachings in ESA on the bloodflow which says that blood must flow to keep the world in balance. That blood must be from different sources, monsters, peasants, soldiers and nobles and thus it is crucial that men not only fight rogues but also each other. My char was in Barca when the big move from west to east happened and he thinks it's because of an imbalance in that bloodflow. Thus he will do all in his power to avoid it happening again and for men to fight each other the situations must be good. Right now nobles are simply spread too far apart.

To explain something concerning the monsters. The devs have explained in their updates that the higher the density of nobles vs occupied lands by realms is, the lower the spawn rate of monsters will be. So in other words, if the same amount of nobles occupy fewer lands (say westgard/madina move towards realms in the east) there will be fewer monster problems in general. On top of that the realms in the east would have more nobles actually making it possible again to fight wars. 5 nobles vs 5 nobles for instance is not really a way to fight a war. Based on those thoughts I came to the opinion that no realm should be in the West, not unless we get more players.

I agree with you fully that wars should generally not lead to the destructions of realms and throughout all my playing time you'll find that I've always advocated for realm survivals in almost all cases. As General in Sirion I wa among those very vocal about keeping Perdan alive for instance. Westgard, due to the situation on Dwilight is in this case an exception for me. I realize it is not fun to lose your realm (been there too many times and will prob soon be there again) but the current situation on Dwilight is less than idea. Player versus beast will continue, just on different borders (for that I think arnor will become perfect if you look at the map).

What you have to understand is that you can't control player density in the way you're describing. If you destroy realms to try to push players to migrate in certain directions to improve player density in certain parts of the map, it may work or it may not. All you can do is roll the dice and see how they fall. Players might move characters to other realms. Or they might choose not to play on Dwilight. That's what I meant when I said the theory that you can increase player density in other realms by destroying Westgard (or Madina, or anywhere else) is misguided. It strongly reminds me of what happened on FEI during the Big Freeze. The push it gave to players in freezing areas to move to other realms simply backfired and people left the island and didn't return. That led to the long, slow death of FEI rather than an increase in player density. The big lesson from the Big Freeze is that player density can't be controlled by trying to push people in certain directions.

On top of that the realms in the east would have more nobles actually making it possible again to fight wars. 5 nobles vs 5 nobles for instance is not really a way to fight a war. Based on those thoughts I came to the opinion that no realm should be in the West, not unless we get more players.

Aiming to destroy the most vibrant and energetic realm I've personally seen in the game for a few years to make dull less populated realms more interesting is an odd sort of logic. I do see what you're saying and where you're coming from with it. But it's still an unusual solution to the problem you see. A different solution would be for the players in the barely occupied realms to move to other realms, or to abandon their current realms and form a new, more densely populated realm between them. But, obviously, they must stay in those current realms because there's something about them that they like. As I say, you can't really hope to control where people will play.

You can still fight monsters in realms that border west Dwilight or a large chunk of rogue regions.

I suspect that won't fly with a number of players in Westgard.

[Feylonis]

Honestly, if the goal is to densify the game by shrinking the available space to play in, just close down the current Dwilight map and start anew with a naturally smaller island. It's much less painful for the players than have them spend months trying to keep up a realm that is destined to die anyway.

[Zakilevo]

Honestly, if the goal is to densify the game by shrinking the available space to play in, just close down the current Dwilight map and start anew with a naturally smaller island. It's much less painful for the players than have them spend months trying to keep up a realm that is destined to die anyway.

As stated repeatedly over the years, new island is just not possible. No matter how small it is.

[Feylonis]

How is it not possible? Literally every single other island is smaller than Dwilight. Just close down DW and move all the characters to FE. Smaller map, more manageable, no more slow painful psychological bleed for players who try to make functional realms only to be told, "no, sorry, you gotta move even more east, don't mind the fact that there is no more east to move to."

[GundamMerc]

How is it not possible? Literally every single other island is smaller than Dwilight. Just close down DW and move all the characters to FE. Smaller map, more manageable, no more slow painful psychological bleed for players who try to make functional realms only to be told, "no, sorry, you gotta move even more east, don't mind the fact that there is no more east to move to."

Because actually creating it at all requires a TON of effort.

Personally I think nothing should occupy the space Westgard occupies now and it would be better for Westgard to move East. The religion aspect I mentioned was my chars belief based on Seoras' teachings in ESA on the bloodflow which says that blood must flow to keep the world in balance. That blood must be from different sources, monsters, peasants, soldiers and nobles and thus it is crucial that men not only fight rogues but also each other. My char was in Barca when the big move from west to east happened and he thinks it's because of an imbalance in that bloodflow. Thus he will do all in his power to avoid it happening again and for men to fight each other the situations must be good. Right now nobles are simply spread too far apart.

To explain something concerning the monsters. The devs have explained in their updates that the higher the density of nobles vs occupied lands by realms is, the lower the spawn rate of monsters will be. So in other words, if the same amount of nobles occupy fewer lands (say westgard/madina move towards realms in the east) there will be fewer monster problems in general. On top of that the realms in the east would have more nobles actually making it possible again to fight wars. 5 nobles vs 5 nobles for instance is not really a way to fight a war. Based on those thoughts I came to the opinion that no realm should be in the West, not unless we get more players.

I agree with you fully that wars should generally not lead to the destructions of realms and throughout all my playing time you'll find that I've always advocated for realm survivals in almost all cases. As General in Sirion I wa among those very vocal about keeping Perdan alive for instance. Westgard, due to the situation on Dwilight is in this case an exception for me. I realize it is not fun to lose your realm (been there too many times and will prob soon be there again) but the current situation on Dwilight is less than idea. Player versus beast will continue, just on different borders (for that I think arnor will become perfect if you look at the map).

This doesn't work. It has never worked, and it is the most backwards !@#$ing thinking I could ever think of. The way to increase density has, barring recruitment of new players, always been to reduce the number of regions nobles control with the LEAST effect on player population. If you remove less densely populated areas, you don't tend to have the anger towards it because in all likelihood the realm was close to not being self-sufficient in the first place. If a realm has a density of 4-5 nobles per region, that's unheard of now a days. They're doing something right that we should pay attention to, and destroying that realm is an act of self-sabotage on our part. You should be focused on region totals, not redistributing nobles from high density areas to low density area. Its just much, MUCH easier to do. Much easier to reduce an overextended realm than to convince 30-40 players of the realm you've destroyed for NO good reason that they'd be better off playing elsewhere.

[Anaris]

I believe the monsters track food/peasants.

This is not the case.

At present, monsters drift toward realms of lower nobles-per-region density. They may pick a region to conquer and make a beeline for that, but when they do so it will be at random.

[Foxglove]

Player density of all realms based on number of nobles compared to number of regions, from highest to lowest:

Avernus 6.0
Westgard 5.6
Westfold 3.2
D'Hara 2.5
Astrum 2.0
Swordfell 1.9
Luria Nova 1.8
Fissoa 1.5
Madina 1.3
Arnor 1.1
Helyg Derwyddon 0.8