Author Topic: If Dwilight was to be redrawn...  (Read 22456 times)

Chenier

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Re: If Dwilight was to be redrawn...
« Reply #30: November 30, 2016, 01:58:31 AM »
Is this just theoretical or are we actually considering this? I can't say any of these really interest me. The ones that separate the southern land bridge are a very bad idea. It would just throw off the flow of the continent. I don't like the idea of eliminating donut regions either. I've always liked them because it makes it possible to have an actual siege, the extra travel time is worth it.

I can see how Storm's Keep serves as a refuge and little more, but what about adding a ferry lane from there to Cold Spring or Springdale? Then it will have a real choke point to defend and could be a rallying point for invasions. (Ferry lane attacks have better odds against a fortified region then attacking by sea correct?)

Also I've always thought it would be cool to turn those two little isolated uninhabited islands into island strongholds. Perfect for founding pirate realms.

I'm not a dev, I'm just brainstorming for the sake of discussion.

For Storm's Keep, in the last versions I added a bridge to Rye. Makes both Strom's Keep and Springdale less isolated, and makes for potential conflict over who owns what there, given that the semi-isand of Nifel and Springdale are often held by different realms. Makes it a choke, and simpler to manage than ferry lanes.

Tiny islands were kind of cool, and there were many on Dwi's first draft, but they were all removed due to being very impractical. For one, you can only takeover regions you are adjacent to, so no one could claim them as is. Then, sea travel kind of assumes you'll eventually get access to a harbor somewhere if you travel far enough, unless ferries are installed you could literally get stranded on them. They are pretty much always, by definition, "far from the capital", making them inefficient. They would be either be too hard to defend, making them only suitable for overly pacifistic realms, or on the contrary too hard to invade, making them unfair. And that's just to name a few. Also, we've had "pirate" realms... they didn't really do any piracy. Granted, Madina's capital wasn't on the inner sea, but on the southern sea, and sea travel only came in much later, so that probably contributed to it. D'Hara did a bit of piracy, but hardly any, trade was too important to it. Mostly raiding rogue regions during a few very brief periods. It's kind of hard to project military might from islands to anywhere, and when your troops tend to get scattered to the smallest battle, you don't get to do much piracy. Distance to travel makes it hard to arrive together, provisions present a whole lot of headaches, sailing costs cut down on your recruitment funds, etc.

We've had the doughnuts for years now, and I don't remember a single meaningful siege. In BM, troops can hold out in a city much, much longer than invading troops can hold out at its border. It's also my understanding that sieges are the result of when the attackers have too many troops for the defender to defeat, but too few to breach the walls. This would remain fully possible with 2-region "doughnuts", which is what I went for in most cases.

Zakky, could you please mention which forts in particular you find to be a problem? Also, while we may not have naval combat, forts still serve as fortified sailing and landing locations. I don't really believe that they should exclusively be in choke points, and I'm not even sure they have ever been in choke points before Dwilight.
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Zakilevo

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Re: If Dwilight was to be redrawn...
« Reply #31: November 30, 2016, 03:09:58 AM »
http://postimg.org/image/zapv4x7x3/

Red: Terrible stronghold locations

Blue: Cities that need to be moved closer to the inner ocean. + too many southern cities overall

Yellow: need sea zones there

Chenier

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Re: If Dwilight was to be redrawn...
« Reply #32: November 30, 2016, 12:46:15 PM »
http://postimg.org/image/zapv4x7x3/

Red: Terrible stronghold locations

Blue: Cities that need to be moved closer to the inner ocean. + too many southern cities overall

Yellow: need sea zones there

That's an older draft though.

Red: Vakyrja could be merged with Yggdramir, making it a very strategic chokepoint to monster lands. Seems like a great fort location. A bridge was added from Storm's Keep to Ryem making it, again, a valuable choke point. Balance's Rereat... we've had a realm there forever. And it's involved in wars right now. I don't really see how to remove it without crippling that realm and destroying one of Dwi's most iconic locations. I'll have to disagree with this one. As for Dragon Song and the Ruins, these are Zuma land, always were (even when the flag wasn't there). We were never allowed to colonize Zuma lands, so I see no reason to alter these iconic locations.

Blue: Also applicable to some of red: We need more inland cities, but I disagree that we need *only* inland cities. Coastal cities are useful to send armies to sea. Also helps to scatter them if one alternates between inland and coastal. That's why a city was added in Caylin. Maybe one could be added to Yaren too. Flow, I've added a bridge. Not sure what else to do, I don't love it, but I don't think it's dramatic to maintain a few such locations. South-eastern cities were redone a lot in latest drafts.

Yellow: sea zones were added in latest drafts.
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Chenier

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Re: If Dwilight was to be redrawn...
« Reply #33: November 30, 2016, 05:10:14 PM »
New take:

Many coastal cities had land added around them.
A new island by the Zuma forts that includes an island.
All rivers made navigable.
All ferry routes removed.
Nifelhold changed to a city.
Valkyrja island merged (mentionned before but wasn't actually redrawn yet)
Possibly a few more things.

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Re: If Dwilight was to be redrawn...
« Reply #34: November 30, 2016, 05:30:32 PM »
The map is starting to become very cool.
Its already a huge improvement as it is.

Its getting hard to read though, i can barley see whats a city and how its called, even zoomed in.

The connection between Lairabina and east dwilight should be a bridge with a sea zone though.
This is a crucial connection, or you end up sailing all the way around the Madinan isle.
Also Giask has little competition, the city is either to large or to isolated.
If you have giask as capital you have to much of an advantage over this whole area.

Darfix should also be put somewhere, it was named after one of the two main creators of this map.
Darfix and Giask are named after them if i am not mistaken (are these guys still playing? they might have some good comments as well).
And if you really can mange to pull this map redrawing off the ground, there might be a Chenier city somewhere, someday :P
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Chenier

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Re: If Dwilight was to be redrawn...
« Reply #35: November 30, 2016, 06:08:42 PM »
The map is starting to become very cool.
Its already a huge improvement as it is.

Its getting hard to read though, i can barley see whats a city and how its called, even zoomed in.

The connection between Lairabina and east dwilight should be a bridge with a sea zone though.
This is a crucial connection, or you end up sailing all the way around the Madinan isle.
Also Giask has little competition, the city is either to large or to isolated.
If you have giask as capital you have to much of an advantage over this whole area.

Darfix should also be put somewhere, it was named after one of the two main creators of this map.
Darfix and Giask are named after them if i am not mistaken (are these guys still playing? they might have some good comments as well).
And if you really can mange to pull this map redrawing off the ground, there might be a Chenier city somewhere, someday :P

Yea, I'm doing quick jobs with GIMP because I presume any change I do is likely to be changed anew. Once more "set" borders and features are agreed upon I could make it look nice again.

The sea connections... something worth thinking about. As it is, the tower at Laraibina and Sallowtown both act as chokepoints that block the passage, both by land and by sea. Armies can land and set sail again on the other side, or sail all round the island altogether. I'm not sure how much of an impact the land bridge has around Laraibina, though the Sallowtown one does block off more vital areas. Not sure what the best avenue would be. I think we'd be better off without any ferry routes, but that would probably only work with more land connections (or bridges) or larger islands, but I don't want to remove the island feel of the islands.

I don't think Giask would make for the best capital. It's meant more as a jewel for realms based in other cities to fight over. While it'd still allow for a realm based there to project might to Madina, Fissoa, and Swordfell, antagonizing all three is likely to see it just starve itself to death.

Madina has kind of bad territory, too, with a city down south and no other. Switching fatmilak over and making them closer to the East lessens this, but maybe not enough. It could be shifted a bit south-east, though.

I think Darfix and Giask quit a very, very long time ago. The names could be recycled for other prominent features. I don't think these huge cities were a good thing, and I'd even consider removing Giask as well.

I've already got a Chenier's Coast, the probably least used sea zone in the whole game ;)
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Zakilevo

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Re: If Dwilight was to be redrawn...
« Reply #36: November 30, 2016, 07:46:39 PM »
That's an older draft though.

Red: Vakyrja could be merged with Yggdramir, making it a very strategic chokepoint to monster lands. Seems like a great fort location. A bridge was added from Storm's Keep to Ryem making it, again, a valuable choke point. Balance's Rereat... we've had a realm there forever. And it's involved in wars right now. I don't really see how to remove it without crippling that realm and destroying one of Dwi's most iconic locations. I'll have to disagree with this one. As for Dragon Song and the Ruins, these are Zuma land, always were (even when the flag wasn't there). We were never allowed to colonize Zuma lands, so I see no reason to alter these iconic locations.

Blue: Also applicable to some of red: We need more inland cities, but I disagree that we need *only* inland cities. Coastal cities are useful to send armies to sea. Also helps to scatter them if one alternates between inland and coastal. That's why a city was added in Caylin. Maybe one could be added to Yaren too. Flow, I've added a bridge. Not sure what else to do, I don't love it, but I don't think it's dramatic to maintain a few such locations. South-eastern cities were redone a lot in latest drafts.

Yellow: sea zones were added in latest drafts.

I am not a big fan of the new maps. I liked your first one.

Chenier

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Re: If Dwilight was to be redrawn...
« Reply #37: November 30, 2016, 08:40:06 PM »
I thought the main differences were addressing stuff you mentioned, though. :P
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GundamMerc

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Re: If Dwilight was to be redrawn...
« Reply #38: November 30, 2016, 11:54:14 PM »
I thought the main differences were addressing stuff you mentioned, though. :P

Didn't you know? it's impossible to please Zakky.

Chenier

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Re: If Dwilight was to be redrawn...
« Reply #39: December 01, 2016, 12:02:26 AM »
I'm thinking of shifting Madina a bit, maybe even inverting it so that Madina gives onto the inner sea. The volcano island could be moved to the ice island, maybe some tweaks to the new islands as well.
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Renodin

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Re: If Dwilight was to be redrawn...
« Reply #40: December 02, 2016, 11:32:28 PM »
the latest map,

you do realize the lurian area, geography is basically replicated in the north with the inland sea there surrounded by cities etc.

the dharan region is buffed massively and also dominates the surrounding lands with big cities around its waters and a landbridge choke point double.

Further rendering the ''lurian'' region a backwater much like present day darfix region. To me this redraw seems like a nice exercise and a potential spark for further inspiration but that's all it does for me.


Maybe play with the idea of fusing dhara with the sallow coast area and do in the south as is done with the north, few  if any islands. Islands are incredibly hard to assault with the current mechanics. Same goes for the bridge / single entry point areas. Rather use travel time options with more possible approaches to a target rather than giving one or two options that are hard choke points.

Chenier

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Re: If Dwilight was to be redrawn...
« Reply #41: December 03, 2016, 01:38:01 PM »
the latest map,

you do realize the lurian area, geography is basically replicated in the north with the inland sea there surrounded by cities etc.

the dharan region is buffed massively and also dominates the surrounding lands with big cities around its waters and a landbridge choke point double.

Further rendering the ''lurian'' region a backwater much like present day darfix region. To me this redraw seems like a nice exercise and a potential spark for further inspiration but that's all it does for me.


Maybe play with the idea of fusing dhara with the sallow coast area and do in the south as is done with the north, few  if any islands. Islands are incredibly hard to assault with the current mechanics. Same goes for the bridge / single entry point areas. Rather use travel time options with more possible approaches to a target rather than giving one or two options that are hard choke points.

I'll review this further later, because I'm not quite sure to grasp everything you meant right now, but D'Hara is just made closer. It could make them stronger, or more vulnerable. They are invadable by Astrum much more easily, for example, with all new regions available to them being disputable with one realm or another.

The Lurian region is made much closer to Fissoa, Madina, Swordfell, and, to a lesser extent, D'Hara, making it less backwater regardless of its shape, I would believe.
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Renodin

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Re: If Dwilight was to be redrawn...
« Reply #42: December 03, 2016, 02:51:59 PM »
Quote
D'Hara is just made closer. It could make them stronger, or more vulnerable. They are invadable by Astrum much more easily, for example, with all new regions available to them being disputable with one realm or another.

D'haran lands as presented are larger than they current map. they are really close to a lot of 2 or 3 square cities. Have more access to food producing regions and the argument that they are more vulnerable is rubbish. There have been plenty of attacks on the D'haran islands and cities and lands in general in the past. It is firmly established that this is a deathwish operation. Armies that were triple the size of the defenders, well coordinated and all were woefully unable to even make a dent in the defenses of D'hara. The best that was accomplished was treachery of one city that was unable to be held by this much larger invading force.

Invasion by Astrum, or any other faction, will face the same problems. The only landbridge to the D'haran lands (desired by D'hara potentially) is guarded by a Stronghold that literally blocks the passage. Before you get there you must move through several bad land regions that have slow travel rates and there's a city dead smack in front of the stronghold to top things off. That's perhaps the best defense in all of battlemaster.

D'hara could (and has in the past) launched invasions from its island(s) to capture cities and food regions. It is perfectly poised to do so in the presented map you made. Not only is golden farrow perfectly situated to be captured, so are the farm lands around it.same for Eidub(sp?) and the southern (green) islands. Even Gelene, Mimer and the Madina regions are fine targets.

Quote
The Lurian region is made much closer to Fissoa, Madina, Swordfell, and, to a lesser extent, D'Hara, making it less backwater regardless of its shape, I would believe.

Lurian lands are utterly decimated. You recycled perhaps 1/3 of the current lands. Fused what did remain with Fissoa, it just has a namesake one square city and capped the region off with neigh impassible mountains which is ''swordfell''. Look at the massive, incredibly long travel time if you wanted to go north of map presented fissoa. This requires a naval move for armies that want to do anything which renders rations low to begin with. That means any invasion army will have low rations to operate in hostile lands further boxing the Luria / Fissoa in. Its a tomb that has Giask and Askileon only a 1 square region apart with barely enough food to keep going. The regions that are presented (going by the names I can read) produce little food compared to the ones you didn't recycle.

Indeed, Luria, as envisioned in the presented map would starve most likely and couldn't do anything to change that. Madina is an island that produces little food  and to the north there are at least 4 regions of mountains or low food producing regions.

Any realm in the south would be forced to live on long distance trading, and that, is very precarious and servile.


The Nothern replica of the inner sea.

Aegis, Freke, City south of Nimh, Stronghold that is nameless north of Freke.

Those are all linked by an inner sea in the presented map. Sure they are small cities but comparable in wealth thus equal in might as the lurian region is currently. Perhaps it even surpasses the luria combination for it also has Muspelheim just around the corner (on the same sea area), lots and lots of food producing regions around it so it definitely won't have to go looking for food and just a bit further away you'll find even more big cities.


Fusing D'hara to the Sallow Coast

Literally crash the presented D'haran islands into the Sallow coast. Their natural barrier would be the bad lands (travel time).  Their Cities would be bastions against the Madinan lands. the factions that arise there would have a much more dynamic area and many options to play around with.  There would be a way for D'hara, Astrum, Westfold, Swordfell, Madina and even Fissoa to interact on a much grander scale than it does now. Heck, it would even be more encouraged to do so if that would be the case.


Glaumring the Fox

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Re: If Dwilight was to be redrawn...
« Reply #43: December 03, 2016, 07:19:21 PM »
How about numbering each of the provinces and then using the amount of cities we have and then using a random number generator of sorts to randomly place the allotted cities and then working from there by tweaking their positions?
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GundamMerc

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Re: If Dwilight was to be redrawn...
« Reply #44: December 04, 2016, 07:09:50 AM »
-snip-

You realize that D'hara's position currently is completely unassailable, except by monsters who don't follow the same recruitment rules as player realms, right? So I'd definitely take a stronger D'Hara that CAN be attacked to a weaker one that can't. It also works in reverse, D'Hara is hard pressed currently to take part in any offensive actions on land thanks to the desert just outside their mainland regions and the rest of the Island requiring them to sail over seas to attack.