The Enweil/Riombara thread

[Psyche]

Factually, you're both wrong on points.  As ruler of Riombara Hvrek DID declare war before/while Marche ordered troops into Lopa.  It was under misinformation given purposely to him from Hvrek that IVF was trying to annex Enweil to taken the Daimon offer, and that he would declare war midtravel because there was a spy in the council.  Hvrek embellished some facts and outright made some things up- as a way for him to take the deal on Riombara's behalf without their knowledge, and gain support for conquest of IVF immediately after.  I would have gotten away with it too, if it wasn't for those meddling Riombarans.


As for Chenier's inaccuracy, Riombara DID go all out in your defense several times.  The only ones who didn't participate were the priests, and one or two nobles defending Fwuvoghor from the occasional skirmish.   Sometimes we were thrown curveballs in Ardmore, but our armies typically all rallied for Enweil, and just had to take a detour every now and then.

Also, the Order of Alluran caused trouble for Enweilians only because Enweilians began attacking and arresting them.  Alluranian priests setup their power base in the western regions they claimed from rogue.  When conflicts first began between the realms BEFORE the invasion it was made clear that they viewed themselves as a separate entity within Riombara, and to be left out of it.  We even offered to join Enweil and help their regions so long as they were openly welcomed.  Conflict started when you looted the he'll out of the Alluranian region Droxago, and we ventured into your lands to be arrested to cause unrest and preach after you began arresting is in regions you were trying to TO.

[Chenier]

The takeover of Enweilieos took forever. Yet, Riombarans only fought once, at the start, and never even tried to come back to break the takeover (even if they would have had ample time to make it).

I'm not saying that you didn't send most of your forces, that I concede you did. When you did. What I'm saying is that Riombara failed to come on a few key occasions. I'm also not saying I wouldn't have done the same thing. But then again, I'm not the one claiming to be an angel, I'm just the one claiming that the neighbor did worse.

From what torture reports and the forums tell me, though, Hvrek was barely the first Riombaran leader to manipulate those below him. "Free" elections are so nice when the only ones with access to valuable information are the ones who want to get re-elected.

[Tan dSerrai]

Psyche: Thanks for clearing this up regarding the declaration of war - at that time I could not play past the basics so I had missed this. So dang, Riombara /did/ declare war. Ah well - my mistake.

Enweilios:
Riombara did march every damn single noble we had towards its defense. That we did arrive one day too late was only due to Fheuvenems duke switching to Enweil, thus speeding up the fall of that city. Thus Midnight did storm the city half a day before our forces arrived.

Then we did attack Midnight in Enweilios with all we had, even though we knew that chances were low - and lost. If you claim we could have 'easily come back' you are completeley wrong or have no concept at all about marching times. Let us try: gather men after the defeat and head back to Rines - 7 regions, 8 halfdays march. Recruit an army 2-3 halfdays. March back: 8 halfdays. Prepare the attack: 1-2 halfdays. That makes a total of 20 halfdays - 10 days. Enweilios had fallen long before that - it was simply impossible to attack Enweilios again. If it would have been even remotely possible, then I guarantee that Sassan would have moved heaven and earth to march.

But I think I will stop now trying to correct obvious mistakes - I simply have to accept that Guillaume wants to view Riombara as evil, therefore must belittle all Riombara did on behalf of Enweil: '8-10 main battles fought on behalf of Enweil? What, no other realm during the invasion did support any other more than Riombara did Enweil? What, they never asked for anything in return? Pfaw, no matter - they were never there when Enweil needed them! And they are evil!


The good part is that Guillaume /then/ is surprised when his 'sensible offers' meet with less than total enthusiasm...   

[Chenier]

Enweilieos lasted at least that long days I believe. The takeover really lasted forever. There were many turns in which he made no takeover actions.

And Enweil was the battleground. Had the daimons chosen a liking to Riombara, Enweil could declare that "no other realm helped any other more than Enweil to Riombara". The daimons in the North wandered around to hit all realms equally. In the South, Enweil was particularly targeted. Had you failed to "come save poor Enweil out of your grand generosity", you'd be dead by now. We both know that if Riombara stood back, it would have made things too easy for the daimons, who would have then rolfstomped the both of us in turns. Had Riombara been the target, despite how much my characters hate Riombara, they'd still have sent as much support as they could.

You don't get credit for trying to keep the daimons out of your own lands and for events that were fully of circumstance. The way you are talking, Enweil should kiss your ass for having been blessed to host all of the big battles in her own lands instead of yours. You weren't selfless, you were just stepping on your egos to save yourselves. Had you been selfless, you wouldn't have taken so damn long to cease the war once the daimons had returned. Instead, you pressed the conflict for as long as you could, as Old Grehk.

[Tan dSerrai]

There is a...tiny...difference between 'kissing our ass' - and 'at least remembering a third of what happened'   

Note that it is easy to claim that 'Enweil would have helped Riombara full-out'...however, I have a bit of doubt regarding this claim as now that Enweil /would/ be in a position to do so by selling a bit of food - which would aid us - it does not. And complains about lack of aid from Riombara during the past weeks instead. Actions do count, y'know...

Ah, well. I guess you/Guillaume will continue to hate Riombara, no matter the facts, actions or intents - thats fine. We can agree on that - lets play it IC. Thats what the game is for - and thats what makes it so enjoyable. The stage has been set more than thoroughly enough for this. However, at some time lets try to keep the Riombara=bad/evil propaganda IC

[Anaris]

However, at some time lets try to keep the Riombara=bad/evil propaganda IC

See, the problem is, at some point, Chénier forgot that it was propaganda and started believing every word he said about Riombara.

[Iltaran]

I hold out a faint hope that Chenier is actually conducting an elaborate satire.

[Foundation]

You are what you preach.

[Darksun]

I hold out a faint hope that Chenier is actually conducting an elaborate satire.

+1

[Geronus]

The problem we have is that you're constantly accusing us of malfeasance when most of the time we're doing our best. And then you do things like refuse to sell us food you don't even need, which we are offering to pay for, when we need it badly to keep up the fight. Which is also your fight, I might add, or you don't get your cities back.

You can keep trying to paint Riombara with what Hvrek did, but we don't accept responsibility for it because we didn't approve of it either. When we realized what he was doing, we forced him out, at the cost of losing Fwuvoghor. I'm not sure what Guillaume is trying to accomplish by playing hardball over the food, but unless his explicit intent is to destabilize relations it's backfiring on him badly. Sassan is the very soul of moderation and understanding. When you've got him up in arms, you've really achieved something.

[Chenier]

There is a...tiny...difference between 'kissing our ass' - and 'at least remembering a third of what happened'   

Note that it is easy to claim that 'Enweil would have helped Riombara full-out'...however, I have a bit of doubt regarding this claim as now that Enweil /would/ be in a position to do so by selling a bit of food - which would aid us - it does not. And complains about lack of aid from Riombara during the past weeks instead. Actions do count, y'know...

Ah, well. I guess you/Guillaume will continue to hate Riombara, no matter the facts, actions or intents - thats fine. We can agree on that - lets play it IC. Thats what the game is for - and thats what makes it so enjoyable. The stage has been set more than thoroughly enough for this. However, at some time lets try to keep the Riombara=bad/evil propaganda IC

You assume that Enweil CAN sell you food. afaik, all of our regions produce deficits. And if we wanted to starve ourselves to help you, I suspect that most of our regions are too far from Rio anyways.

The problem we have is that you're constantly accusing us of malfeasance when most of the time we're doing our best. And then you do things like refuse to sell us food you don't even need, which we are offering to pay for, when we need it badly to keep up the fight. Which is also your fight, I might add, or you don't get your cities back.

You can keep trying to paint Riombara with what Hvrek did, but we don't accept responsibility for it because we didn't approve of it either. When we realized what he was doing, we forced him out, at the cost of losing Fwuvoghor. I'm not sure what Guillaume is trying to accomplish by playing hardball over the food, but unless his explicit intent is to destabilize relations it's backfiring on him badly. Sassan is the very soul of moderation and understanding. When you've got him up in arms, you've really achieved something.

Right, because bonds are so much use to us, right? Obviously, it's totally worth starving ourselves to get MORE BONDS!

You also don't seem to realize that Riombara's ruler has never once spoken to me about food. Maybe our banker said something foolish, I don't know. But I sure as hell didn't make any demands regarding food, because Rio's ruler never asked me for any.

You also seem to think that Hvrek's actions were isolated. They were not. That everything Rio did against Enweil or Fheuvenem was only done by him. They were not. It's been proven here that you really don't know as much about your realm as you think you do. Riombara has a long history of being dirty. You've just had also a long history of government members that hide it pretty well. Kudos to those who manipulate their subjects so well, really.

Seriously, who do you think has the most interests in destabilizing relations here? The crippled realm, or the one who has been trying to kill it since as long as I play the game? Yes, Guillaume's not the best man for the job, at all. But that doesn't mean he's not being set up. Yesterday, out of nowhere, Thalmarking's making threats at me about demanding two regions from Rio or else I don't sell them food. Which makes me go all "wtf  ". Rio's ruler never asked me for food, and I never demanded that Rio give us any region whatsoever. Now everyone's saying that Guillaume is out to starve Rines, when it's the first time I hear that it has food problems (which I really don't grasp, 'cause Rio lost Grehk and Fwuvoghor, it should produce a huge surplus now...) and when all of my regions have dark clouds and 0% production (and therefore, run deficits).

[Tan dSerrai]

Sigh.
Our banker(s) did contact the various enweilian bankers - several times. No answer for a long time, then the now infamous 'we will sell you food if you give us two regions'.

Sassan did report all of interest to the enweilian general(s). Both your banker and Handkor knew nothing of this. I assume Guillaume also did not know any of this.

Now you tell me you knew nothing of what your banker has been up to. /And/ you claim that Enweil has no food. With several rural regions and no city? Truely? And even if this is true, why on earth would your banker then offer to sell us some? If you do not have food a simple 'sorry, can't do' would have been fine, wouldn't it? Do you honestly believe we'd ask you to starve yourself? And that we are not aware that you can't use bonds (yet)?

Yeh gods, stop backpedalling - you simply want to distance yourself from a disastrous political event. 'Maybe my banker said something foolish'...you could say so, yes. He also repeated it several times. I think we can safely assume that Guillaume knew fully well what his banker was doing - both his and the bankers first messages (after long silence) arrived within one day - and had one message refering to the other. Please excuse Sassan if he does not /quite/ believe your claim of 'Didn't know anything. Not my fault. 'tis always the hired help'

This was a simple 'Please sell us food' answered by a 'Only if you give us two regions' combined with Guillaumes 'Give us two regions'. Add the complaint of 'Riombara did not help us!' and Handkors question 'Where was Sassan during the begin of the invasion?' (answered with dry 'fighting a total of 15 battles for Enweil. So glad you noticed'). I think Sassan blowing his top is quite understandable.

Note that this could still be repaired - however it would need to be repaired by Enweil. If Guillaume truly wants good relations with Riombara that can be pretty easily arranged - but Sassan currently thinks that Guillaume simply wants to cover his tracks, to avoid taking responsibility - and letting someone else take the fall.

[Geronus]

You also seem to think that Hvrek's actions were isolated. They were not. That everything Rio did against Enweil or Fheuvenem was only done by him. They were not. It's been proven here that you really don't know as much about your realm as you think you do. Riombara has a long history of being dirty. You've just had also a long history of government members that hide it pretty well. Kudos to those who manipulate their subjects so well, really.

He was running multi-accounts. What was done that he didn't do? He controlled all the priests that bothered you. He declared war on you which triggered the one battle you keep complaining about.

The only other thing you've brought up is infil actions. I do vaguely remember an incident, and I know it wouldn't have been Hvrek because to my knowledge he didn't have any infiltrators in his stable. However, to my knowledge we only had one, who is no longer around. One of the De La Feres. What are you claiming happened?

[Sypher]

A minor point but its not unrealistic that Enweil isn't producing a surplus. Fronen has only one region producing a food surplus (we have 4 rurals and 2 townslands)  Why? Because almost all our regions are under the semi-blight which screws production.

[Ehndras]

Oh, politics. Its the same on every server.