New Estate System

[Dante Silverfire]

Honestly? What sort of idiot rulers are getting appointed in this game where this would even be a possibility?

Well we usually don't intend to elect rulers that would do such a thing. Most rulers are elected when they are doing good for the realm or seem convincing or have a large following. However, as the saying goes: Power Corrupts, and absolute power....well you know the rest.

Anyway, I could definitely see where this may have been done against me in my personal past if it were an option. If a Ruler dislikes a Duke enough they'll go to any means possible to get them out of their office or to lose their support.

[Chenier]

Could you please illustrate this? A power struggle implies there is actually a struggle, not just the duke taking a gigantic penis to the face with no option for retribution. What options can a duke pursue to fight against something like this.

What if the scenario Silverfire mentioned were to come true and the duke was left with one region. What could he about it?

Lords should be able to check a little box stating they don't want to be dukes, imo, as they can check about not wanting to be marshals.

[Velax]

Well we usually don't intend to elect rulers that would do such a thing. Most rulers are elected when they are doing good for the realm or seem convincing or have a large following. However, as the saying goes: Power Corrupts, and absolute power....well you know the rest.

Anyway, I could definitely see where this may have been done against me in my personal past if it were an option. If a Ruler dislikes a Duke enough they'll go to any means possible to get them out of their office or to lose their support.

I can see it happening once, yes, as a tactic to weaken a duke. But for it to become a "see saw" with the lords continually realigning their regions to the original duke and the ruler continually reappointing them dukes of their own duchies seems highly ridiculous. That ruler should be protested off the damn continent.

[Tom]

The topic of massively-large duchies (spanning an entire realm) has been brought up many times. I don't share the fear that this is a real danger, but let me say this much: I would not suggest anyone try that for gameplay advantages, because changes I have in mind for a little further down the line would put you at a big disadvantage then.

[De-Legro]

Could you please illustrate this? A power struggle implies there is actually a struggle, not just the duke taking a gigantic penis to the face with no option for retribution. What options can a duke pursue to fight against something like this.

What if the scenario Silverfire mentioned were to come true and the duke was left with one region. What could he about it?

How is stupid? I think it's a very good idea if you know the duke is going to secede.

The Duke and the Ruler are not in a vacum here. So he might not PERSONALLY be able to do something, the game is all about connections and oaths, so the Duke if he has been setting things up properly should be able to call on support against the ruler in this case. If he can't manage that, then he probably doesn't deserve the privileges he just lost. This is pretty much how things worked, rulers would run all over week Barons Dukes and Lords, while taking a much more measured approach against powerful figures or coalitions of nobles.

[Shenron]

The Duke and the Ruler are not in a vacum here. So he might not PERSONALLY be able to do something, the game is all about connections and oaths, so the Duke if he has been setting things up properly should be able to call on support against the ruler in this case. If he can't manage that, then he probably doesn't deserve the privileges he just lost. This is pretty much how things worked, rulers would run all over week Barons Dukes and Lords, while taking a much more measured approach against powerful figures or coalitions of nobles.

I don't buy this. While what you say could be true... I think it's also pretty likely that people will pretty much accept what changes the ruler makes since he has the mechanic to do so. As Tom said, the ruler can just pretend it's for a reason other than castrating the said duke....

I think there should be some kind of mechanic to officialize the realms support for the creation for a new duchy. For example when a new duchy is created, at least one new region must join it (within 3 days?) for it to be considered legitimate. Thoughts?

[Indirik]

If I had understood things right, there will be no more Claims,

Correct.

but only Knights of a given Region will be able to be promoted to Lord of it, after the Lord position is vacant, same for Lords of a Duchy to be promoted to Duke.

Not correct.

[Indirik]

I think it's also pretty likely that people will pretty much accept what changes the ruler makes since he has the mechanic to do so.

Then they deserve what they get.

[Shenron]

Then they deserve what they get.

Such a Rob thing to say.

[Indirik]

You can only do so much to protect people. There comes a point when people need to stand up for themselves. If they are not willing to do that, then too bad.

And in this case, where the ruler has created a duchy, what's the big problem here? The ruler has created a new duchy that people in the realm don't like? Big deal. It's not like that's going to kill the realm. (And even if it did, it wouldn't be the first time a ruler killed their own realm.) And maybe it will cause some inner conflict in the realm, and make something happen. Because the last thing we need in the game is a system where people can just ignore their problems and they will go away all on their own. Which is what you proposed.

[Shenron]

You can only do so much to protect people. There comes a point when people need to stand up for themselves. If they are not willing to do that, then too bad.

And in this case, where the ruler has created a duchy, what's the big problem here? The ruler has created a new duchy that people in the realm don't like? Big deal. It's not like that's going to kill the realm. (And even if it did, it wouldn't be the first time a ruler killed their own realm.) And maybe it will cause some inner conflict in the realm, and make something happen. Because the last thing we need in the game is a system where people can just ignore their problems and they will go away all on their own. Which is what you proposed.

What I proposed was that the ruler can't just wank all over the control panel. Having just one region as a prerequisite for a duchy won't meant too much. It would simply be a way for confirming that the ruler knows what he is doing. If King Kepler makes a duchy that can't even attract one lord why should the time be wasted and the mess be created. Sure it would piss people off, but in my opinion not in a good way. It would be kind of like "now why did you !@#$ing go and do that?" rather than "I am gravely offended, lets have a bunch of duels and referenfums etc etc": which I think is the preferable kind and I think is mainly generated spontaneously through players vying for power on a fair battleground.

I'm all for the internal strife, but not when nobles are forced to explain away dodgy game mechanics: that !@#$ just gets confusing since nobody has even ground to stand on as different people will interpret the game differently.

Also. Another thing to consider is that we need to be careful about the balance between causing debilitating internal strife vs. fun internal strife. Depending on the realm situation this can vary I understand. I think we would definitely need more opinions on the matter, but I can at least say that I can imagine (using my bm experience) an instance where a ruler would use this feature semi-abusively and the realm would not be able to stop him as according to game mechanics he has technically made a legitimate action.

Perhaps, and I assume you do, you have a different experience to mine and you think the nobles should be responsible for the ousting the ruler themselves. Maybe it has something to do with your success in Dwilight. As I have said in the past, not many people have had this success and we absoloutely should not be expected to rise to it.

I will re-iterate what I say quite a lot these days. BM should be a lightweight game. To this end the game mechanics must be set to appropriate parameters for people to play without too much stress. Greating a game mechanical mess for the players to sort out is not really doing this.

[Indirik]

If King Kepler makes a duchy that can't even attract one lord why should the time be wasted and the mess be created.

Because he's the King, and it is his right to do so.

Don't like it? Then get a coalition of nobles together to force the king to submit to restrictions on the use of his powers.

but I can at least say that I can imagine (using my bm experience) an instance where a ruler would use this feature semi-abusively and the realm would not be able to stop him as according to game mechanics he has technically made a legitimate action.

If the player is abusing the game, then report him, and let the Magistrates/Titans take care of it. If it is not an abusive issue, then deal with it IC.

I will re-iterate what I say quite a lot these days. BM should be a lightweight game. To this end the game mechanics must be set to appropriate parameters for people to play without too much stress. Greating a game mechanical mess for the players to sort out is not really doing this.

Nobody is stopping anyone from playing BattleMaster as Lightweight. These changes to estates will definitely help out a lot. Especially lords who have been struggling to find knights for their regions. It will reduce the maintenance and buro load significantly.

But just because you can play the game lightweight doesn't mean that you can get just as much out of it as someone who devotes much more time. If that were the case, you'd end up with something that is extremely shallow. And no, you probably won't be able to engage in in-depth political power struggles on 5 minutes a day.

[vonGenf]

I really fail to see the problem with duchies with little to no regions. At worst, you could have a bunch of people running around with the title of Duke, but little power in terms of money and land. What's the big deal?

It's already the case that when a noble who was previously a Duke but loses his city retain the title of Duke until he swears a new oath. Now, instead of signing "Kepler (Duke)", he wil sign "Kepler (Duke of West Keplerstan)" with West Keplerstan not actually controlling any region. So what? That's fine for me.

[Tom]

I think there should be some kind of mechanic to officialize the realms support for the creation for a new duchy. For example when a new duchy is created, at least one new region must join it (within 3 days?) for it to be considered legitimate. Thoughts?

You have missed the entire point of this change. I want to enable people to do things without support, and face the music afterwards.

[Tom]

What I proposed was that the ruler can't just wank all over the control panel.

But that's the whole point of being a ruler!

BM is not fair, it does not do level playgrounds. It has all kinds of unfair, evil options. Not so many as to make things not fun, but definitely more than enough to cause some strife - and that's what we're all here for. It's BATTLEmaster, not CuddleMaster. Though that could be a cool name for a furry social-media game...

It would simply be a way for confirming that the ruler knows what he is doing. If King Kepler makes a duchy that can't even attract one lord why should the time be wasted and the mess be created.

But it may not be a mess. And attracting a second region is not a good indicator of "making sense". There will always be a case where a single-region duchy does, indeed, make sense. In that particular circumstances of that particular realm.

What I am doing is moving the judging out of code and unto the players. I don't want a piece of code to evaluate if what the ruler did was the right thing to do or not - I want the players to decide upon that.