New Estate System

[vonGenf]

That is impossible.

Think about it. A duke can only appoint a noble as a region lord if that noble is one of his vassals. A duke cannot be the vassal of another duke.

So if you are a Duke without region and your ruler refuses to dissolve your Duchy, you cannot have an estate or a Lordship, ever? That's interesting. I had not caught that from the discussion.

[D`Este]

A knight can't have an estate if he wants to become lord. So he needs to abandon his estate first and then he can be chosen.

[Dante Silverfire]

Correction: A banker can see a composite of all the information that is available to all the dukes put together. No offense meant here, but as the banker of Pian en Luries, you have the small city of Poryatown and the medium city of Askileon to feed. Not exactly a difficult task, especially when your realm has a 150-160% food supply. In such a case I can see how the banker's job would seem to be a bit... superfluous.

However, when your realm grows a bit bigger, you will appreciate the overall view that the banker has. Try feeding a realm of 5 or 6 duchies on a food supply of just over break-even, and you will see how vitally important that banker's overview is.

I understand, that, but what I mean is that if the banker's data is just combined data that dukes could get by simply sending messages to each other, then the use of a banker is simply to not make dukes have to talk to each other, but him to just send the exact same messages to them each anyway. The job is thus just a relating of data comparisons to each other, but when the data isn't that hard to relate it is simply a messaging job. I realize that these changes aren't fully implemented yet, but I know before at least banker's had a fit niche to take and I am just hoping we once again reach that situation.

As far as my being banker of Pian en Luries when we have a large surplus, I was also banker of Pian en Luries when we had a 90% food production rate and 3 cities and it was a lot more difficult of a job, but still manageable when the banker could move food around. Right now, I don't mind that we have a lot of excess food and thus can make my job easy, but it isn't even much of a job if it is only sending messages from one person to another based upon things they can already know by talking to each other instead of me.

Please understand, I'm not griping or complaining, just making sure that this just wasn't overlooked necessarily in any of the changes just on happenstance. I understand now that it wasn't overlooked and is just continuing to be implemented so will wait, but I look forward to seeing what new roles can be adapted here.

[Indirik]

So if you are a Duke without region and your ruler refuses to dissolve your Duchy, you cannot have an estate or a Lordship, ever?

Nope. An estate assumes an oath of service to the lord of the region. You become that lord's vassal, and they become your liege lord. If you are above them in station, then how can you take an oath of service with that lord?

You can always step down from the duchy. Then you won't be a duke, and you can then take service with another duke. Then *he* can give you a new region.

The way it works now makes more sense. If you are above someone in station, or at their level, then you can't take service under them. It makes absolutely no sense at all for the ruler to have an estate in a region, owing allegiance to another lord. The ruler is that lord's ultimate liege. Why the heck would the ruler be swearing an oath as that lord's vassal, and paying them taxes, then taking his own ruler share from that lord's duke?

The old system was horrible in that regard, but it's the best that could be done. Now it should be much simpler, and clearer, once you you discard the way it used to work, and take a fresh look at the system.

[Indirik]

A knight can't have an estate if he wants to become lord. So he needs to abandon his estate first and then he can be chosen.

Are you absolutely certain about this? I do not believe it to be true, or at least not intended. When I was testing this on the dev server a few weeks ago, that was not how it worked.

[JPierreD]

Has it been revealed how the game will decide to which duchy belongs regions that are TOed?

Not yet.

[Indirik]

I understand, that, but what I mean is that if the banker's data is just combined data that dukes could get by simply sending messages to each other, then the use of a banker is simply to not make dukes have to talk to each other, but him to just send the exact same messages to them each anyway. The job is thus just a relating of data comparisons to each other, but when the data isn't that hard to relate it is simply a messaging job. I realize that these changes aren't fully implemented yet, but I know before at least banker's had a fit niche to take and I am just hoping we once again reach that situation.

Have you ever tried to manage the food situation of 6 duchies, when you can only see the food situation of 1 of them? Or none? The banker's bird's eye view is critical in keeping things organized. Sure, you *could* do it by trying to exchange messages back and forth. But that would be ridiculously cumbersome and error-prone. Especially if one of those dukes is just not interested in dealing with it.

Please understand, I'm not griping or complaining, just making sure that this just wasn't overlooked necessarily in any of the changes just on happenstance. I understand now that it wasn't overlooked and is just continuing to be implemented so will wait, but I look forward to seeing what new roles can be adapted here.

Tom is still working on it. Eventually there will be something more for the banker to do. Just not right now. So, take a bit of a vacation.

[Phellan]

Alright.

Update now is that we *can* appoint a Lord.  But it's a player whose character was at the far end of the kingdom.   He is however the only noble with the "Lord" title, as he was a previous Lord of a different region.

I've asked my players to keep me updated on if things change   Thanks!

[vonGenf]

The way it works now makes more sense. If you are above someone in station, or at their level, then you can't take service under them. It makes absolutely no sense at all for the ruler to have an estate in a region, owing allegiance to another lord. The ruler is that lord's ultimate liege. Why the heck would the ruler be swearing an oath as that lord's vassal, and paying them taxes, then taking his own ruler share from that lord's duke?

The old system was horrible in that regard, but it's the best that could be done. Now it should be much simpler, and clearer, once you you discard the way it used to work, and take a fresh look at the system.

I agree, it's much better!

Just one last point to be sure I cover everything. If a Duchy is without region, without nobles and without Duke, can the ruler still appoint a new Duke? Or does it remain an empty shell until dissolved?

[Dante Silverfire]

Have you ever tried to manage the food situation of 6 duchies, when you can only see the food situation of 1 of them? Or none? The banker's bird's eye view is critical in keeping things organized. Sure, you *could* do it by trying to exchange messages back and forth. But that would be ridiculously cumbersome and error-prone. Especially if one of those dukes is just not interested in dealing with it.

I think if one of the dukes isn't interested in dealing with it, and a lot of lords are also not interested in dealing with it because they view the food game as simply cumbersome and a responsibility not worth dealing with then you're screwed anyway. So, No I haven't been Banker of CE on Atamara for instance, but I think the entire situation is just more easily solved if lords were given the "option" to let the banker directly manage their food stores if they don't want to deal with it. Then, the banker can work with those lords that actually want to manage their food, and personally handle the food of those that simply don't want to waste their time that they don't have.

and sure a vacation sounds just fine,

[Dante Silverfire]

Question: How will the new estate system change the way that election of rulers that are currently Dukes work in Republics for instance?

ie. Right now if you are a Duke and you are elected as ruler in a republic, you automatically abdicate your lordship position of the city and become Ruler. Will this change under the new system, or would you still lose your position as Duke and lord?

[Indirik]

Just one last point to be sure I cover everything. If a Duchy is without region, without nobles and without Duke, can the ruler still appoint a new Duke? Or does it remain an empty shell until dissolved?

I believe that as long as the duchy exists, whether it has regions or not, the ruler can still appoint a new duke when the position is vacant.

[fodder]

I understand, that, but what I mean is that if the banker's data is just combined data that dukes could get by simply sending messages to each other, then the use of a banker is simply to not make dukes have to talk to each other, but him to just send the exact same messages to them each anyway. The job is thus just a relating of data comparisons to each other, but when the data isn't that hard to relate it is simply a messaging job. I realize that these changes aren't fully implemented yet, but I know before at least banker's had a fit niche to take and I am just hoping we once again reach that situation.

when's the last time you saw a duke talk to another duke about food. or for that matter a duke talking to a lord about food aside from "send me everything, for free"?

[Indirik]

I think if one of the dukes isn't interested in dealing with it, and a lot of lords are also not interested in dealing with it because they view the food game as simply cumbersome and a responsibility not worth dealing with then you're screwed anyway.

Yeah, pretty much.

I think the entire situation is just more easily solved if lords were given the "option" to let the banker directly manage their food stores if they don't want to deal with it. Then, the banker can work with those lords that actually want to manage their food, and personally handle the food of those that simply don't want to waste their time that they don't have.

I agree. I would love for there to be an *option* for lords to allow the bankers to control the warehouses in their regions.

[Dante Silverfire]

when's the last time you saw a duke talk to another duke about food. or for that matter a duke talking to a lord about food aside from "send me everything, for free"?

All the time in Coria....Seeing as my character is a duke and not only talks with the other duke about sending me food, but also about buying food from my lords...