Author Topic: If all the continents merged?  (Read 16648 times)

De-Legro

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Re: If all the continents merged?
« Reply #30: October 26, 2011, 11:58:06 PM »
The Blood Cult had an entire sect (The Sect of Xerotl which was formed when the Blood Cult absorbed the Church of Teros) who taught the Daimons were an evil to be destroyed or -- if that was not possible -- controlled and kept at bay.

It also had a sect that recognized Daimons as gods, but recognizing a thing as a god is very different from worship (i.e. God and Satan in modern Christianity dogma). So far as I know no one but the few who lost their minds in the Netherworld ever worshiped them, and Valachi himself led the aforementioned Sect of Xerotl.

I was unaware that Christians though Satan was a god, that is rather messy with the whole there is only 1 god belief.
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Draco Tanos

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Re: If all the continents merged?
« Reply #31: October 27, 2011, 12:31:54 AM »
Because they don't.  Lucifer (the Devil, Satan, whathaveyou) is generally deemed a fallen angel, at one point God's most beloved.  He coveted God's power and tried to seize it and so was cast down with the other rebellious elements.  At no point is Lucifer/Satan ever viewed to be a God.

As for the Blood Cult.  Yeah.  Okay.  "We hate daimons!  Only -some- of us worship them!  But we ally with them all the time and still seek to crucify others for doing the EXACT SAME THING!  Even Sint!  Ignore that they betrayed the daimons and cut them off from the old Netherworld with a Temple of Light while we marched along side the daimons to destroy bastions of humanity!"

Ramiel

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Re: If all the continents merged?
« Reply #32: October 27, 2011, 01:20:37 AM »
Because they don't.  Lucifer (the Devil, Satan, whathaveyou) is generally deemed a fallen angel, at one point God's most beloved.  He coveted God's power and tried to seize it and so was cast down with the other rebellious elements.  At no point is Lucifer/Satan ever viewed to be a God.

As for the Blood Cult.  Yeah.  Okay.  "We hate daimons!  Only -some- of us worship them!  But we ally with them all the time and still seek to crucify others for doing the EXACT SAME THING!  Even Sint!  Ignore that they betrayed the daimons and cut them off from the old Netherworld with a Temple of Light while we marched along side the daimons to destroy bastions of humanity!"


Incorrect my dear man, The Fallen Archangel (not just a mere angel, some even suggest he was a Throne which I find doubtful) coveted God's Love of Humanity. Because God loved Humanity more than his Angels (Angels were placed under Humans).

He was jealous of Humanity.
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De-Legro

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Re: If all the continents merged?
« Reply #33: October 27, 2011, 01:55:09 AM »

Incorrect my dear man, The Fallen Archangel (not just a mere angel, some even suggest he was a Throne which I find doubtful) coveted God's Love of Humanity. Because God loved Humanity more than his Angels (Angels were placed under Humans).

He was jealous of Humanity.

This varies greatly depending on the particular variant of the Christian Faith. Under classical Jewish beliefs Satan was the Angel tasked with challenging the faith of humans. You can see this clearly in the Book of Job. It is generally accepted that in this usages Satan is not a name, but a title given to an angel when tasked with challenging faith.

The traditional Catholic view is that Satan wants to lead people away from love and worship of God. He was described as being among the highest of all angels (Brightest in the Sky) but was not explicitly named as a Archangel. It is inferred that his pride prevented him from bowing down to God, and seek ruler ship over heaven, but again there is no definite biblical reference to this. It is worth noting that the new testament never identifies Satan as an angel, though the Book of Revelations refers to the Dragon (Satan) and his angels, so it is generally intercepted that he is among the angels. Again here there is disagreement over whether this as already occurred, or if it is a future sign of the "end" times.

Anyway what is important is that much of the tradition surrounding the Devil are from Post Medieval writings, interpretations and existing mythology.
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Anaris

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Re: If all the continents merged?
« Reply #34: October 27, 2011, 04:23:33 AM »
He was described as being among the highest of all angels (Brightest in the Sky) but was not explicitly named as a Archangel.

Not sure why he should be, when Archangels are only the second of the (IIRC) six different ranks of angels.

Let's see if I can remember them all, as close to in order as I can manage: angels, archangels, dominions, thrones, cherubim, seraphim

(Of course, this, too, depends on which particular branch of Christianity you listen to.)
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De-Legro

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Re: If all the continents merged?
« Reply #35: October 27, 2011, 07:10:21 AM »
Not sure why he should be, when Archangels are only the second of the (IIRC) six different ranks of angels.

Let's see if I can remember them all, as close to in order as I can manage: angels, archangels, dominions, thrones, cherubim, seraphim

(Of course, this, too, depends on which particular branch of Christianity you listen to.)

There are a few different hierarchies, again most were formulated in the middle ages. The most influential is arguably "The Celestial Hierarchy" which formed 3 spheres of 3 choirs, or types of angel in each sphere. In addition to the ones you listed there are also the Principalities, Powers and Virtues.

It is important to differentiate between archangels (second lowest category, of the third sphere whom's responsibility was warriors and messengers and the Archangels, which according to some interpretations where the seven highest Seraphim and thus the highest of all the choirs. Since the Seraphim's are often portrayed as caretakers of Gods throne chanting "Holy Holy is the Lord of the hosts and burning with love for God, and in many traditions it is the requirement of continual adulation for God that drove Satan to rebel, it is common to place Satan and his "rival" Michael as seraphim.

Anyway very little exists in the bible about any of the hierarchies, so they are at best a interpretation of limited data.
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Ketchum

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Re: If all the continents merged?
« Reply #36: October 27, 2011, 08:01:43 AM »
It going be a brand new world and environment to explore if all the continents merged. In terms of gameplay values, alliance, enemies made, el cetera. Perhaps the biggest realm of every continents have a slugfest once in awhile and see who has the mightiest army in whole BM? I am keeping my fingers crossed for this slugfest proposal  8)
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Chenier

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Re: If all the continents merged?
« Reply #37: October 27, 2011, 08:19:16 AM »
The Blood Cult had an entire sect (The Sect of Xerotl which was formed when the Blood Cult absorbed the Church of Teros) who taught the Daimons were an evil to be destroyed or -- if that was not possible -- controlled and kept at bay.

It also had a sect that recognized Daimons as gods, but recognizing a thing as a god is very different from worship (i.e. God and Satan in modern Christianity dogma). So far as I know no one but the few who lost their minds in the Netherworld ever worshiped them, and Valachi himself led the aforementioned Sect of Xerotl.

Indeed, the only daimon to have come to BT and to be recognized was Arcane, and he was eventually demoted in the divine hierarchy. After all, Cultists were involved in getting him to leave BT, and tried to make sure he could never come back. Mind you, I never really thought he wanted to. Those who were a little too friendly with the daimons were the first to switch over to Daimon Worship when it came back. Not many did, though, and they weren't meaningful cultists either.
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Chenier

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Re: If all the continents merged?
« Reply #38: October 27, 2011, 08:25:48 AM »
Besides, the Cult was polytheistic, not monotheistic. The inspiration came from aztec mythology, not christian mythology. As such, there were good gods and bad gods, none all-mighty. A "god", as such, is basically any powerful creature of supernatural origin or with supernatural powers.

I mean, really, some of these gods, both in America and in Europe ancient faiths, are pretty damn puny.

Alliances with the daimons were convenient, because the same ones that kept pestering the daimons also kept persecuting the Cult. The Cult would never have aligned itself so closed to the daimons had they not been constantly persecuted as they were.

The doctrine was, since almost the beginning, that daimons are tools to be manipulated to our own ends, and therefore not to be objects of worship.
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Ramiel

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Re: If all the continents merged?
« Reply #39: October 27, 2011, 01:09:00 PM »
Hmmm I though in the old Jewish belief system that Satan was... hang on...

It makes no sense. Satan, in most texts I have read agree that he, was second in power to God and fell after Humans were created so after Adam and Lillith and Eve. But he got pissed off after a period of time that humans had already been around.

Yet he is also portrayed as the Snake which tempted Eve with the Apple from the tree of Knowledge.
And this is after Lillith (aka Lilith, Lilieth) has already eaten from an apple from three of Life (thus becoming immortal like the angels, which is a very big thig since only 'free will for Humans and immortality for the angels' are what divide them - oh and wings :D ) and according to the religious texts - a consort of Satan, which is absolute pishposh if you ask me, more likely she just went and had fun being immortal! - I cant remember if Satan tempted Lillith or not. But her first Sin was to not lie under Adam, her second to eat from the Tree of Life (the other forbidden fruit).

So we have a case where:

Angels do not have Free Will, yet they do.
Satan fell from Grace long after humans were around, yet he tempted Eve and possible Lilith.
Lucifer - The Brightest Light - is also accorded as Satan. In many texts Lucifer and Satan (Shaitan) are two different Angels, in some they are the same.
As is:
Beelzebub - ruler of demons.
The Devil - King of Demons.
Abbadon - an apparent another angel.
Belial - yet another angel.
Leviathan - the great serpent.

Beelzebub, The Devil, Leviathan can easily be titles. But Belial, Abbadon, Lucifer and Satan seem to be 4 different angels...
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Chenier

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Re: If all the continents merged?
« Reply #40: October 27, 2011, 06:10:17 PM »
Hmmm I though in the old Jewish belief system that Satan was... hang on...

It makes no sense. Satan, in most texts I have read agree that he, was second in power to God and fell after Humans were created so after Adam and Lillith and Eve. But he got pissed off after a period of time that humans had already been around.

Yet he is also portrayed as the Snake which tempted Eve with the Apple from the tree of Knowledge.
And this is after Lillith (aka Lilith, Lilieth) has already eaten from an apple from three of Life (thus becoming immortal like the angels, which is a very big thig since only 'free will for Humans and immortality for the angels' are what divide them - oh and wings :D ) and according to the religious texts - a consort of Satan, which is absolute pishposh if you ask me, more likely she just went and had fun being immortal! - I cant remember if Satan tempted Lillith or not. But her first Sin was to not lie under Adam, her second to eat from the Tree of Life (the other forbidden fruit).

So we have a case where:

Angels do not have Free Will, yet they do.
Satan fell from Grace long after humans were around, yet he tempted Eve and possible Lilith.
Lucifer - The Brightest Light - is also accorded as Satan. In many texts Lucifer and Satan (Shaitan) are two different Angels, in some they are the same.
As is:
Beelzebub - ruler of demons.
The Devil - King of Demons.
Abbadon - an apparent another angel.
Belial - yet another angel.
Leviathan - the great serpent.

Beelzebub, The Devil, Leviathan can easily be titles. But Belial, Abbadon, Lucifer and Satan seem to be 4 different angels...

Yay for plot consistency! :D
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egamma

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Re: If all the continents merged?
« Reply #41: October 27, 2011, 08:01:08 PM »
Hmmm I though in the old Jewish belief system that Satan was... hang on...

It makes no sense. Satan, in most texts I have read agree that he, was second in power to God and fell after Humans were created so after Adam and Lillith and Eve. But he got pissed off after a period of time that humans had already been around.
Satan was an arch-angel. Above regular angels, but Gabriel would be at the same level, or perhaps above, Satan.

And Lilith isn't mentioned at all in Christian theology--that seems to be a later addition.

Quote
Yet he is also portrayed as the Snake which tempted Eve with the Apple from the tree of Knowledge.
He took on the appearance of a snake--but appearances can be deceiving.

Quote
And this is after Lillith (aka Lilith, Lilieth) has already eaten from an apple from three of Life (thus becoming immortal like the angels, which is a very big thig since only 'free will for Humans and immortality for the angels' are what divide them - oh and wings :D ) and according to the religious texts - a consort of Satan, which is absolute pishposh if you ask me, more likely she just went and had fun being immortal! - I cant remember if Satan tempted Lillith or not. But her first Sin was to not lie under Adam, her second to eat from the Tree of Life (the other forbidden fruit).
Again, going off the Christian version of Genesis--which I thought was identical to the Jewish version, but anyway--Adam and Eve's sin was eating from the Tree of the Knowledge of Good and Evil. Since God had told them not to do that, that was the only sin they could possibly commit--so of course, they had to do it. 

The penalty of sin is death, so that sin cancelled out the previous eating of the Tree of Life's fruit. They were banished from the Garden of Eden so that they couldn't sin and yet live eternally.

Quote
So we have a case where:

Angels do not have Free Will, yet they do.

All I have ever read says that Angels freely choose to follow God's commands--and that fallen angels, aka demons, freely choose to ignore God's commands.

Quote
Satan fell from Grace long after humans were around, yet he tempted Eve and possible Lilith.
I think you mean "long before". Just because he fell from grace doesn't mean he lost his powers.

Quote
Lucifer - The Brightest Light - is also accorded as Satan. In many texts Lucifer and Satan (Shaitan) are two different Angels, in some they are the same.
As is:
Beelzebub - ruler of demons.
The Devil - King of Demons.
Abbadon - an apparent another angel.
Belial - yet another angel.
Leviathan - the great serpent.

Beelzebub, The Devil, Leviathan can easily be titles. But Belial, Abbadon, Lucifer and Satan seem to be 4 different angels...

I've never heard of Lucifer and Satan being a different person, but that's fine.

Chenier

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Re: If all the continents merged?
« Reply #42: October 27, 2011, 08:22:07 PM »
So... Who temped Eve with the apple, if Lucifer fell from grace long after?
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vonGenf

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Re: If all the continents merged?
« Reply #43: October 27, 2011, 08:30:27 PM »
So... Who temped Eve with the apple, if Lucifer fell from grace long after?

I always thought people were too quick to dismiss the possibility that Eve may just happened to be a huge fan of apples.

I mean, apples are good. Seriously.
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Adriddae

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Re: If all the continents merged?
« Reply #44: October 27, 2011, 08:48:34 PM »
Gotta say the genesis account never says the fruit was an apple. That idea was depicted by artists who usually drew the tree as an apple tree.