Noble clothing

[songqu88@gmail.com]

Try taking a poop in plate armor.

Actually...I thought that was what happened in prolonged battles, or ones in which knights fought daimons.

[WarMaid]

I assume that as the very top of the heap of nobility we have the wherewithal to have the very best and most costly fabrics and trims.  I further assume that as women in the Battlemaster reality have an equality that their real world counterparts don't, that they would not be constrained in the same ways.  Plus, I'll be honest:  I find a lot of the real Medieval fashion (particularly the earliest centuries) to be dull.  So, I borrow heavily from latter periods when "designing" dresses for my characters to wear.  (I do try not to be crazy about it; I'm not wearing zippers or elastic or lycra!)  If my ball gown is a bit more Renaissance than Medieval or if I decide to have something of a Greek Revival style a few hundred years early...well, I expect that's not too great a sin.

(Moving the post I put in the wrong thread to the right place!)

[songqu88@gmail.com]

How about silk? My dates are a bit fuzzy so I'm not sure when trade with the East took place.

[Bedwyr]

How about silk? My dates are a bit fuzzy so I'm not sure when trade with the East took place.

Byzantium made silk too, and there's no particular reason for us to think that one or more of the continents in the existing Battlemaster world wouldn't have silk given that except on Dwilight trade between one end of the continent and another is fairly straightforward, and on Dwilight if you're in a heavily settled area or have good access to a port you should be fine.

[Haerthorne]

Byzantium made silk too, and there's no particular reason for us to think that one or more of the continents in the existing Battlemaster world wouldn't have silk given that except on Dwilight trade between one end of the continent and another is fairly straightforward, and on Dwilight if you're in a heavily settled area or have good access to a port you should be fine.

People were pretty vain in the period, and could afford to be considering the pillaging and taxing they did. Charlemagne, for example, absolutely refused to be coronated before he got the latest fashion in regal Byzantine silks.

Still, medieval fashion didn't have to be functional. Knights had a habit of wearing shoes which had the ends tied to their legs by little ropes/chains so that they could be gloriously long and pointed. Corsets aren't necessary for having tight clothes either - I'm no fashionista, but you can have something stitched to be tight-fitting without a corset (there's a bit more care in getting into them is all.

Given that a great deal is probably romanticized, I tend to have some very inaccurate ideas of the times then. When were the knights that go around showing off most prevalent?

1000's-1200's was the golden age of knights dicking around. They were usually pretty into the changing fashions of the day and if you look at the manuscripts of the day you can see that there were a lot of long robes at the start until they start cutting the cloth shorter and shorter until you get the entire set of tights being shown off. I'm not an expert on this though so I'm not going to contend with anyone who says "They didn't wear tights in the middle of the 12th Century! Your logic is crap!".

The major part of knights that is romanticised is the idea that they were nice. Everything else is true. They fought everywhere, they had the best armour, they had the nicest clothes... in the 1100-1200's the whole troubadour culture really took off in southern France and spread to the rest of France and England (since they emulated France and, as a common saying in England at the time went, "England is no place for a knight"). As a result knights did actually learn poetry, recite it, pen it themselves... In Germany too we have evidence that knights who could not afford to be knights anymore would effectively become clerks and writers. It was just way more fun and protitable to be a knight.

[Hyral]

Still, medieval fashion didn't have to be functional. Knights had a habit of wearing shoes which had the ends tied to their legs by little ropes/chains so that they could be gloriously long and pointed. Corsets aren't necessary for having tight clothes either - I'm no fashionista, but you can have something stitched to be tight-fitting without a corset (there's a bit more care in getting into them is all.

It's certainly true that you can make form-fitting clothing with unforgiving fabric. Sewing in darts, using multiple shaped panels of fabric, and a simple lacing up the back or sides will give you something well-fitted and not wholly impractical that you could, say, attend dinner and dance in. Whether or not that was actually common or fashionable in the middle-ages is something different I imagine, but, it is possible.

[songqu88@gmail.com]

Women wore tight-fitting clothes back then? I thought they were more or less fat. Maybe I'm thinking a later period...

[egamma]

Women wore tight-fitting clothes back then? I thought they were more or less fat. Maybe I'm thinking a later period...

Being 'plump' was (and still is in many parts of the world, particularly Nigeria) a sign of wealth--skinny girls were skinny because they couldn't get enough to eat, and therefore poor. Being voluptuous means that you can afford to eat, and was a sign of status, similar to the clothes they wear.

This doesn't mean that the wealthy women weighed 300 pounds.

[Bedwyr]

Women wore tight-fitting clothes back then? I thought they were more or less fat. Maybe I'm thinking a later period...

1. Depends on your definition of "fat".  You have to bear in mind that the "fat = wealthy" thing often merely meant "this person has never gone hungry" and we might not even call some of the wealthy "fat" people plump (though others certainly were in the plump/fat/obese range, of course).

2. Why wouldn't you wear tight clothes to show off your wealthy body?  Just because we tend to limit form-fitting clothes to skinny types these days doesn't mean they would then.  They're used to show off bodies that you want to show off.  If you want to show off your wealthy fat, it would work.

[Vellos]

Anybody want to show me a picture of form-fitting medieval dresses?

Some tight(er) clothing does exist for women after around 1200; but, again, nobody goes to battle in that. You don't just go chill out in it.

One essential part of womens' formal wear that BM players rarely include: the hat! Giant hats were in for a long time. Especially pointy ones.

Tight clothing was really more for men than women.

Silk is definitely possible, but expensive. It is true that rulers might demand it: but even high nobles like BM nobles should not be regularly running around in silk clothing. Silk is an emperor's formal wear (unless you have a special RP for your realm that establishes you as a silk-producing region).

Note that, in my mind, if a fashion only BEGINS to appear in 1300-1400, it isn't medieval. I would define medieval as widely popular by 1300-1400 at the LATEST. None of this 1492 or 1452 nonsense. BM is pre-gunpowder, so we should be thinking pre-Hundred-Years-War in terms of mood and dress. 800-1200 is the best bet for cultural models.

[De-Legro]

Tight clothing for women did exist, it just mostly focused on the bodice :). I think its fine to have some leway anyway. This is a low fantasy game, not a historical simulation. Give people some freedom in custom as long as it is in the spirit of things.

[Vellos]

as long as it is in the spirit of things.

I do not regard a historical error of 300 years as in the spirit of things.

[Haerthorne]

As much as that is tending towards a "no fun allowed" approach, Vellos, I have to admit my undying love for you because of that statement.

BUT as we all know, every single realm in battlemaster is not only a great provider of its own silk with giant, beautiful cities, but filled also with endless expanses of woodlands, bustling trade routes, enchanting rivers, frozen wastelands, really tall mountains and extremely bountiful fields. In fact we only have the trade to keep our image up to date with other realms, since we are all incredibly wonderful and self-sufficient places able to supply any good known to man, including up to 70 kinds of alcoholic beverages that are better than yours. Oh, and the peasants never get in the way of nice views. There is a law against that kind of thing.

So poo on you, the nobles in battlemaster can continue to obtain all the luxuries they could ever think of and make outlandish fashion statements at the drop of a hat.

[Woelfen]

I myself tend to keep my characters dressed appropriately for where they are and what they are doing. Being an upper tier of Noble allows for a bit of freedom in the clothing department, as opposed to those even a few steps down the hierarchal ladder.

Markus - Caligus. Typically wears a white or red silk shirt and black breeches, black riding boots with a short dagger and medium length blade. dark cloak at night, white with red trim during the day. Only ornamentation is the silver rose pin used to clasp his cloak, always there on the field or no. On the field, he wears a breastplate, helm, and the same weapons, long campaigns he brings a small shield (think buckler).

Woelfen - Perdan. Wears a grey tunic with a blue tabard (order of the blue flame) over it, black breeches, heavily worked boots and a grey floppy hat with a white plume when in home lands, supple leather armour of grey and green when in the field. Stilleto dagger and a bow are his weapons.

Berwin - Arcaea. Wears an orange shirt with blue breeches, a white scarf, dark riding boots, and a heavily plumed tricorne hat. In the field, full plate mail that is decorated and showy along with a lance is the only way for him to fight. A small blade is attached to his saddle for when it is needed.

[Igelfeld]

As much as that is tending towards a "no fun allowed" approach, Vellos, I have to admit my undying love for you because of that statement.

BUT as we all know, every single realm in battlemaster is not only a great provider of its own silk with giant, beautiful cities, but filled also with endless expanses of woodlands, bustling trade routes, enchanting rivers, frozen wastelands, really tall mountains and extremely bountiful fields. In fact we only have the trade to keep our image up to date with other realms, since we are all incredibly wonderful and self-sufficient places able to supply any good known to man, including up to 70 kinds of alcoholic beverages that are better than yours. Oh, and the peasants never get in the way of nice views. There is a law against that kind of thing.

So poo on you, the nobles in battlemaster can continue to obtain all the luxuries they could ever think of and make outlandish fashion statements at the drop of a hat.

I sense you are being a bit sarcastic in this comment, but it leads to an interesting question. If your family is insanely wealthy, should that be reflected in your clothing?

Personally, whenever I make a claim about my characters appearance, I take four things into consideration: family wealth, personal status (knight, Lord, etc.), purpose of current journey, and realm culture. All of these should (I think) play some part in determining appearance . What do you guys think?