“Til Death” option for Hero characters.

[Maxim]

“Til Death” option for Hero characters.

Heroes are the only characters that can die in Battle, and on very few occasions they get to recruit locals and raise region morale. They can’t do police work or civil work if I understand it correctly, and get only marginal unit advantages. (Does their Swordskill even add to the unit CS anymore?). This is why I propose they get an additional option. A “No retreat, no surrender” option in their Unit settings.

Let’s say this raises the chance of the Hero dying to something nearer 90%-95% (since in BM you apparently can never have certainty over anything, though I would also be in favour of a total 100%), with the very slight chance that instead of dying they are just Critically Wounded.

There are plenty of times in actual Medieval History when Knights fought without retreat and died doing so, which seems like the very epitome of what a hero should be.
(See Sir Geoffroi de Charny at Poitiers, Sir Simon de Montfort at Evesham. etc).

Sure, you’d have to calculate what their unit would do, perhaps almost every man retreats when the unit reaches the values for when they would usually retreat, and only the Hero and a few other men as a close personal bodyguard stay the field and ultimately die alongside them. (When a Hero dies the unit disappears anyway, so if 5 men staying the field for that little bit longer swings a battle then .. well .. all the more fame to the dead Hero, epic roleplay etc.) I can’t imagine that would be too hard to implement.

So as well as making Heroes that little bit more interesting and desirable it also allows players to .. dispose, of a character they otherwise have no other use for. I had Sextus do a one-man-cavalry-charge against the besiegers in Valkyrja before Averoth fell, and then roleplayed he simply “disappeared”. Had I had the option to actually have him die in that battle it would have been much more appropriate. (but then .. maybe he did ;p) The fact Heroes are otherwise useless is the reason I’ve never played one. Their abilities are seemingly so rare to enact they’re the only character class that has almost no reward for a binding-subclass, save for the slight chance the character might die. And then it’s just a termination of the character, a one-off and often not very consequential end.

It’s better than simply having to “Retire” a character, or suddenly having them spontaneously die. This doesn’t make the game any “easier” like so many other suggestions, doesn’t over-power or give any real advantage to a character, save for letting a player enact a powerful roleplay before sending their character to what would hopefully be their glorious demise in battle.

Thoughts, comments, criticisms, the usual -

[vonGenf]

I like the idea - it certainly is better than manually retiring.

I think a 95% chance is too high. It may be better to lower the odds to a point where some people might "risk it" for RP purposes even if they don't want to absolutely die. 25% seems a good number (with maybe a 95% chance of wounding). If you absolutely want to kill your character, repeating over two or three days will certainly do the trick.

[Sacha]

Eh... this will probably get exploited by fame whores. Create a disposable hero they don't have attachment to, have him die in some random battle for no reason other than getting the fame, and collect the fame.

[Maxim]

I think a 95% chance is too high. It may be better to lower the odds to a point where some people might "risk it" for RP purposes even if they don't want to absolutely die. 25% seems a good number

Well, don't Heroes "risk it" in every battle? The point of this is that it's a (nigh)Certain-to-Die choice. If the odds don't massively reflect that .. it makes it pointless. If the higher chance is simply you get wounded I can see more people lamenting how their Heroes spend more time Wounded and unplayable instead of dying off when they want them to.

Eh... this will probably get exploited by fame whores. Create a disposable hero they don't have attachment to, have him die in some random battle for no reason other than getting the fame, and collect the fame.

Yay for a single Fame point? I think we can afford the one-up on Fame. It can't exactly be exploited that much. No more exploitable than someone making an adventurer just so they, or someone else, can execute them.

[Anaris]

Well, don't Heroes "risk it" in every battle? The point of this is that it's a (nigh)Certain-to-Die choice. If the odds don't massively reflect that .. it makes it pointless. If the higher chance is simply you get wounded I can see more people lamenting how their Heroes spend more time Wounded and unplayable instead of dying off when they want them to.

The chances of getting killed in any given battle are very, very small.  Well under 1%, I would say.

Yay for a single Fame point? I think we can afford the one-up on Fame. It can't exactly be exploited that much. No more exploitable than someone making an adventurer just so they, or someone else, can execute them.

Four fame points: one for regular hero death, three for legendary.

That's enough to tempt almost anyone who cares at all about fame into, ah, indiscretions.

[Sacha]

I've seen people deliberately asking for their characters to be executed so they could get one fame point. Some people will ask to have stuff done to them because they think it will get them fame, even if it doesn't.

[Maxim]

The chances of getting killed in any given battle are very, very small.  Well under 1%, I would say.

Sort of why this option is needed then ..

Four fame points: one for regular hero death, three for legendary.

That's enough to tempt almost anyone who cares at all about fame into, ah, indiscretions.

Extend the time qualifications or prestige requirements for a Legendary Hero status to be achieved, or reduce the reward granted if you choose this option. Family fame is largely unimportant from what I've seen. Unless you're playing for 'stats', which I'm pretty sure BM has never been about. Besides, it's only really risking 1 family fame gain, since you never know if a Hero is Legendary until they die, so anyone trying to just 'fame-up' on the Legendary death wouldn't know if their character yet qualifies.

Maybe a few of the very old old heroes will be popped off this way, and will subsequently be Legendary deaths. Oh well, new blood, and the opening up of realm positions for younger characters. If people want to sacrifice real IG established characters for some barely noticeable family fame .. more fool them.

[Sacha]

Family fame may be 'unimportant' in that it has no real mechanics effects, but unless you don't give a flying !@#$ about the roleplaying side of the game, it can be very important. If only because of the fact your character from a 30 fame family can look down on less famous ones

[Ramiel]

Personally, I like the idea very much. It would create some very top notch roleplay (hopefully).

As for Fame, you could just make it so that the Hero needs certain prerequisites for it... maybe even permission from the Marshal as well (after all you may be frakking up their battle plan and war plan!)

[Indirik]

On the surface of it, this *sounds* interesting. Sure, in some circumstances it might be nice to finish out your character's story by having him die rather than force you to delete them. And there's the whole "He died heroically fighting the enemy!" thing.

On further review, though, I think that perhaps this is not really a desirable option.

• First, there is the fame-whore aspect. People will go to great lengths to try and get single unconfirmed fame point. I could easily see people abusing this to gain 4 guaranteed fame points. To compensate, any hero death using this option would have to be immune from gaining the family fame.
• Second, I don't necessarily like the idea of a player essentially "forcing" someone else to kill them. Just like (for the most part) your character can't die without your consent, you should not be able to force someone else to kill you. I could see a few possible abuses of this.
• Third, if you want things to happen in a certain, specific way, then RP it yourself. Just because you want something to happen in a specific way doesn't mean you get to have it happen. That's the nature of a multi-player game, where the story is driven not just by the player, but by game mechanics and by more than a little random chance. Even so, you can still do nearly all of what you want. When you delete a character, you are allowed to specify that the character died, and enter a reason. If you want your character to die in battle, and the game won't cooperate, then just wait til they get wounded, delete them, select the "character died" option, and enter something like "Died from wounds received in the Battle of Keplerville". Congratulations! Your hero just died in battle.

[Indirik]

... maybe even permission from the Marshal as well (after all you may be frakking up their battle plan and war plan!)

Wut? You have to get your Marshal's permission to die in battle? This doesn't even make any sense...

"Don't you dare die on me in battle today, Sir Kepler. And that's an order, damnit!"

[Maxim]

First point - change the fame stat? Or make a whole new one. Like I say I find it bizarre anyone would waste a character for a fame point. How about you get the single fame point for choosing the option and dying, regardless of whether you should get three, and it counts as the non-legendary hero death? Pretty much sorted. I won't begrudge anyone a single fame point if it means so much to them.

Second point - forcing .. some guy in the other noble's unit? Let's face it, all of this "Yeah my character totally >killed/wounded/captured< that other guy personally" we see is such rubbish. It's the unit that kills the Hero. It's the unit as a whole that is noted as doing so. The chances are 'Just some guy' in your unit is the one who does the wounding/killing/capturing. Easy enough for anyone to 'avoid' the responsibility if they want to or claim it if that so floats their boat. Jesus .. it's .. a Battle. People Kill Other People. If their character doesn't like the idea of that maybe they shouldn't be fighting ;p

Thirdly - A certain, specific way? Like having a tiny amount of autonomy about whether your character stands his ground and dies or retreats? Having this option is about the same amount of choice as actually setting travel to take part in the battle anyway. Or as simply pressing "delete". The difference is the realm sees it as a hero death. The continent sees it as a hero death. It's noted in the Battle reports, it can be put up on the realm Wiki. It plasters itself onto your Profile as a big, indisputable banner ... simply "Deleting", regardless of whatever sentiment you may wish to express in the deletion message to your realm, doesn't say it's a Hero death, and doesn't note it as such. It just says "He snuffed it". If you're all in favour of people deciding their character's died in the battle .. why not simply make it so they >can< say that.

"My father died in Battle!"
".. Not according to your family page"
-sigh.

[Indirik]

First point - change the fame stat? Or make a whole new one. Like I say I find it bizarre anyone would waste a character for a fame point.

I find a lot of things that people do bizarre. That doesn't mean that they don't do them, though. I know that people have gone to great lengths, including creating new characters and making them jump through tortuously stupid behavior patterns, just to get a single fame.

And no, I don't think that just because a single fame point means a lot to someone that we should just let them have it. That demeans the entire point and basis of the fame system. You get fame for doing special things. (Yes, I know some of them are more special and rare than others.) You do not get fame for clicking a button on the page that says, essentially, "Give me a fame point, please."

Second point - forcing .. some guy in the other noble's unit?

Yes, that is correct. Adding this option would essentially allow you to force someone to kill you. Whether you choose to call it the character doing the killing, or the character's unit. You could force someone to kill you. You could take a deliberately inferior unit and ambush a army, or an individual character with a superior unit, and force them to kill you in battle. Even if you aren't currently at war.

Thirdly - A certain, specific way? Like having a tiny amount of autonomy about whether your character stands his ground and dies or retreats? Having this option is about the same amount of choice as actually setting travel to take part in the battle anyway. Or as simply pressing "delete". The difference is the realm sees it as a hero death. The continent sees it as a hero death. It's noted in the Battle reports, it can be put up on the realm Wiki. It plasters itself onto your Profile as a big, indisputable banner ... simply "Deleting", regardless of whatever sentiment you may wish to express in the deletion message to your realm, doesn't say it's a Hero death, and doesn't note it as such. It just says "He snuffed it". If you're all in favour of people deciding their character's died in the battle .. why not simply make it so they >can< say that.

Except that it's not really a really a hero death. Hero death is "you pay your money, you take your chances" thing. What you're proposing is not. It's a "click this box to die" option. Call it assisted suicide. A "death by cop", if you will. That doesn't fit within the current mechanics of heroes.

Given all the possible abuses and other things that this could cause, I just don't see it as a worthwhile addition just so someone's family history page can read "died in battle" as an "official" note.

Remember that just because you personally would not abuse a feature, or take it to the extreme and use it for unintended purposes, doesn't mean that other people won't do that. The dev team has to consider the fact that abuse is possible, and weigh that against the possible benefits of the feature.

[JPierreD]

I think that placing the restriction of "no fame points gained by this action" would be pretty much ok.

Regarding forcing someone to kill you, when you attack someone with lethal force you /are/ basically saying: "defend yourself or die". It is not "execute me while I'm unarmed", but "use self-defense if you want to live". It is something every Hero is doing every time, though with very slight chances of death. What would be the problem? If the other player's unit is set to Defensive or Normal and you are at peace with him, you will have to be the aggressor (your fault), if it is set to Aggressive or Murderous then he /was/ picking up a potentially lethally (to the other) fight.

Don't you think?

[Jens Namtrah]

If the only issue is the Fame Point, why not just say, "Don't grant the fame point if you use this option"?

I don't personally find an issue with giving a Fame Point or 3..as it's been said, they have little impact on the game itself.