Treasure Maps for adventurers

[Draco Tanos]

The King's Justice/upholding the law for the first, and inevitable byproducts of war for the second.  None are cold blooded murder.  You do realize there's a difference between them, right?

[egamma]

The King's Justice/upholding the law for the first, and inevitable byproducts of war for the second.  None are cold blooded murder.  You do realize there's a difference between them, right?

Not to the peasant.

[Anaris]

Not to the peasant.

Who asked him?

[egamma]

Who asked him?

True, true, but my point is, do nobles REALLY care about what happens to peasants?

[Anaris]

True, true, but my point is, do nobles REALLY care about what happens to peasants?

Sometimes.

After all, there can be laws against looting.

And it may not be so much "he killed a peasant!" that's the problem as "he's a killer!"

[Bedwyr]

True, true, but my point is, do nobles REALLY care about what happens to peasants?

Of course.  Peasants are productive and quite useful in many ways when properly led.

I've never understood the idea that nobles wouldn't care about the well-being of their peasants.  They're my peasants, not yours.  You're messing with my property/production/status.  Even in the case where they do something manifestly wrong, it is not your place to punish them, as I am their overlord and reserve all rights to do anything to them.

[Draco Tanos]

This.

The people who are hanged are traitors.  Those who die during a Harsh Court were criminals/traitors.  Both are classed by nobles as the administration of justice.

Those peasants who raise small armies/militias are striking at/attempting to kill nobles.  That is a crime as well. 

When peasants die during takeovers, the only ones who care/should care are the nobles of the realm losing the region.  Those seizing the land again, believe it is just.  They are opposing the seizing realm, after all.

[egamma]

Do you really think that our nobles, with our finger-print dust and DNA testing and security camera footage, are only punishing the guilty?

The reason these harsh measures cause morale drops is because the peasants think we are being unjust.

[Draco Tanos]

Do you think that even now with all of our DNA, fingerprinting, etc. that innocent men and women aren't charged or punished?  If so...  Let me join whatever fantasy world YOU live in!   lol

Innocents are caught up in it, yes.  However, as far as any NOBLE is concerned, and even most of the peasantry, in this sort of era, if they were innocent, the Gods would intervene.

[Nosferatus]

Do you really think that our nobles, with our finger-print dust and DNA testing and security camera footage, are only punishing the guilty?

The reason these harsh measures cause morale drops is because the peasants think we are being unjust.

Ok that post wins the golden trophy of naiveness.
Another thing, check the missing person numbers of your country. (for usa: http://www.fbi.gov/about-us/cjis/ncic/ncic-missing-person-and-unidentified-person-statistics-for-2010)
Most of those people where victim of a murder.
Thats alot of unsolved murders ;)

Perhaps in modern times we finally do research(there was no such thing as the justice we know in medieval times, they had nothing to research a crime but gods judgement), but that doesn't mean its still one of the most difficult jobs on earth.
Perhaps all you know of forensic investments and such from tv shows as csi, but that is far from reality.

Hell, i'd even bet my life on it that i could kill you and get away with it if i wanted to.

Please don't be so naieve to think where living in some super age, while reality might just be the opposite.

[De-Legro]

Ok that post wins the golden trophy of naiveness.
Another thing, check the missing person numbers of your country. (for usa: http://www.fbi.gov/about-us/cjis/ncic/ncic-missing-person-and-unidentified-person-statistics-for-2010)
Most of those people where victim of a murder.
Thats alot of unsolved murders ;)

Perhaps in modern times we finally do research(there was no such thing as the justice we know in medieval times, they had nothing to research a crime but gods judgement), but that doesn't mean its still one of the most difficult jobs on earth.
Perhaps all you know of forensic investments and such from tv shows as csi, but that is far from reality.

Hell, i'd even bet my life on it that i could kill you and get away with it if i wanted to.

Please don't be so naieve to think where living in some super age, while reality might just be the opposite.

He isn't. His post merely points out that our nobility have even FEWER tools with which to establish guilt. The post doesn't actually say that things like DNA testing mean that we never wrongly accuse in the modern era. Also the medieval period had laws, much of which was not governed by the church, and they did use evidence in the proceedings, evidence largely being things like other testimony, written records etc.

[Nosferatus]

He isn't. His post merely points out that our nobility have even FEWER tools with which to establish guilt. The post doesn't actually say that things like DNA testing mean that we never wrongly accuse in the modern era. Also the medieval period had laws, much of which was not governed by the church, and they did use evidence in the proceedings, evidence largely being things like other testimony, written records etc.

Yes,l but that was far from justice.
an Example:
Some gold is stolen from a merchant on a market, all beggars are rounded up and have to stand in a crucifix position (arms form a cross with the body), the first one who lowered there arms(ussualy the beggars whos the least healthiest and thus probably not a sucsesful thief) got punished, by for example cutting of the hand, which was a mortal wound most of the time.
They used alot of torture methods, but it all came to the strongest wins and the weakest loses.
Its all in the assumption that only god can sneak justice and gives strength to the innocent and weakness to the guilty.
There doesn't have to be a church involved, this where city guards, something like our modern day cops.
It's probably the worse form of justice system possible.
The laws of Hammurabi, about 4000 years old are even more just and fair.
hell those laws even gave the accused a chance to provide evidence.

It think the middle ages where probably the worse times in history if we speak of justice.

[Thunthorn]

It should be pointed out that everytime a Lord spends a boring six hours of holding court he is essentially listening to commoners and others arbitraring in twists and giving punishments to crimes.

Medieval justice consist of the judge, who could be any knighted noble or lord when commoners are concerned - planned beforehand or on the whim of the judge, listening to the case and then passing out judgement as he sees fit. He can choose to be just, arbitrary or just downright cruel depending on personal whim. But nominally he is supposed to be fair even to peasants. Its just that there is noone that protects the peasants interests and when it comes to the word between a noble and a peasant the peasnats word means nothing.

Which is about what the BM courts simulates...

[egamma]

Ok that post wins the golden trophy of naiveness.
Another thing, check the missing person numbers of your country. (for usa: http://www.fbi.gov/about-us/cjis/ncic/ncic-missing-person-and-unidentified-person-statistics-for-2010)
Most of those people where victim of a murder.
Thats alot of unsolved murders ;)

Perhaps in modern times we finally do research(there was no such thing as the justice we know in medieval times, they had nothing to research a crime but gods judgement), but that doesn't mean its still one of the most difficult jobs on earth.
Perhaps all you know of forensic investments and such from tv shows as csi, but that is far from reality.

Hell, i'd even bet my life on it that i could kill you and get away with it if i wanted to.

Please don't be so naieve to think where living in some super age, while reality might just be the opposite.

Don't think me naive, someone broke into my car and stole a suitcase, and left a perfect set of prints on my window where they pulled down (I left it cracked and they pulled down on the glass until they could reach in and unlock the car). The police showed up, took fingerprints, and as far as I know, they never caught the guy.

The point I was trying to make is that the medieval justice our nobles are enacting is based on rumor and whim, as pointed out but Thunthorn. I was speaking about 'false positives' and not 'false negatives.

[Shizzle]

Note how in BM you decide to be harsh, just or merciful before you have even heard any cases :) The reason courts are held is to increase loyalty, control or morale, not to excert justice.