Is it ever acceptable to plan things OOC?

[Bedwyr]

What if you're a new player? Is it acceptable to say "We held a OOC vote two weeks ago and the results was that we would be mercenaries"?

Then live with it, or leave.  What happens when someone joins Darka, but doesn't like mercenaries?

What if you didn't want to be a mercenary but were outvoted? Do you leave the realm, or do you play your character as opposing the mercenery idea? But if you're allowed to just go against the new culture of the realm, then why hold a OOC vote in the first place?

Because having the discussion OOC allowed people to talk frankly about all the options and allow some change of characters to fit the new idea.  Some didn't like the idea, and either left or began working to see it overturned IC (though I think most of them actually voted for it OOC, they just liked the idea of fighting it IC), which it was with the next Ruler.

Note that it is fine to play mercenaries, I have no problem with that. I only have a problem with the whole idea of OOC voting. I don't even have a problem if three or four people decide OOC that they will take their character in a certain direction beforehand, as long as they allow other to join them afterwards; but three or four people is a free association. The realm should not be a OOC meaningful unit.

I would much rather have the realm have an open, honest discussion about how to make the game more fun than a couple of people quietly deciding OOC to change things.

[Stue (DC)]

Then live with it, or leave.  What happens when someone joins Darka, but doesn't like mercenaries?

Because having the discussion OOC allowed people to talk frankly about all the options and allow some change of characters to fit the new idea.  Some didn't like the idea, and either left or began working to see it overturned IC (though I think most of them actually voted for it OOC, they just liked the idea of fighting it IC), which it was with the next Ruler.

I would much rather have the realm have an open, honest discussion about how to make the game more fun than a couple of people quietly deciding OOC to change things.

.. and kill what is major fun for many eventually. when someone make ic clique, he has to make efforts about it, and someone else can make counter-clique and here it is, some ic struggle.

open and honest ooc dicussion mostly means avoidance of any possible ic disputes at one, forever.

what you mentioned about darka, in that respect, means nonone will ever be able to make any opposition there, as everything about the realm is agreed ic "to make game more funny", now how to counter that at all? that is agreed occ, voted on ooc, and apparently the only way to go against it is to initiate counter-discussion and counter-voting ooc.

if that is not utmost case of exclusion of all who think differently, i cannot imagine better example. if you put something on ic vote, it can get 90% win, but still those 10% can defy secretly or openly and that is the game.

if that is put ooc, than when anyone in realm notices some opposition, he can say" "look, we agreed how to play. you are not allowed to oppose it. leave!"

that is absurd. internal grievances would have potential to be major factor in creating game events and fun, and this way it is sterilized forever.

to resume - in my opinion "honest ooc discussion how to make game funny" is perfect fun-killer. what some people obviously want is complete predictability and avoidance of competition.

[Bedwyr]

You didn't pay the slightest attention to my points about people immediately beginning to plot against it IC, did you?  Nor the fact that they succeeded in changing it?  Nor the fact that the reason it started is because everyone in the realm agreed things were dead dull?

[Indirik]

what you mentioned about darka, in that respect, means nonone will ever be able to make any opposition there

Just as an aside, there have been many, many IC discussions in Darka over the past couple years about giving up the whole mercenary thing.

Also:

in my opinion "honest ooc discussion how to make game funny" is perfect fun-killer. what some people obviously want is complete predictability and avoidance of competition.

OOC discussion in the realm does not mean that you have to avoid IC conflict. Players can discuss OOC the types of play they like, and then IC guide the realm in that direction. That does not remove fun, or even conflict. In fact, it can help people have /more/ fun, by helping tailor the game experience toward something that the players like. That could just as easily be /toward/ something with more intra-realm as it could be toward something with less of the same. Realms like Republic of Fwuvoghor thrived on IC conflict, and the players there loved it.

[vonGenf]

You didn't pay the slightest attention to my points about people immediately beginning to plot against it IC, did you?  Nor the fact that they succeeded in changing it?  Nor the fact that the reason it started is because everyone in the realm agreed things were dead dull?

I guess I wouldn't have felt the right to do so if I had been in that situation. I would have put it under the "play as you would play a board game with friends" rule; you don't go sabotaging things that have been agreed, even if you disagree that it should have been agreed.

If it happens to me, I'll grow a pair.

[Heq]

I dunno, I wreck all kinds of things in board games with my friends.  I guess it depends on how knockaround your friends are maybe?

I'd be interested to see if the proof is in the pudding, but let's be honest about what realms really are.  They are player groups, and different player groups are going to play games differently even if it's the same game.  Hell, not everyone wants the same things out of the game.

My point is that there is no Panancea.  What happened in Arcaea worked there, maybe it wouldn't work elsewhere, maybe it would, but elsewhere is going to have different players with different attitudes.  Trying to say "This will work in all cases!" is trying to put the ocean in a paper cup.

[Chenier]

You also don't need to have 100% of the people adhere to a concept for it to work.

For example, if we set outselves a theme in a D&D group where we are to be mercenary assassins, not everybody would need to pickup the rogue class with assassin subclass. Not do they all have to RP their characters as liking the life of an assassin.

[Stue (DC)]

You didn't pay the slightest attention to my points about people immediately beginning to plot against it IC, did you?  Nor the fact that they succeeded in changing it?  Nor the fact that the reason it started is because everyone in the realm agreed things were dead dull?

i did notice what you mentioned, but could not imagine it. why in the first place, why would you need to put that all things ooc when you have clear plan what to do ic, than you can implement it in whatever way you want - through realm laws, guilds and councils - and to deal with all possible opposition in it? what would ever be the reason to put that things ooc if not to meta-game.

you likely did not want that people recognize you as arrogant ruler, so you explained your action in advance, to clear what are you doing, to prevent most of opposition.

i already had situation when realm i was ruling was stuck into apathy, and my ruler-char begin with actions which turned ca. one third of nobility into opposition, which never existed before, but i never sent a single word of ooc explanation that my new initiative came from boredom, taking all consequences which could occur.

now indirik can say that i am imposing the others how to play, but it is not me, but game rules which are created and upheld for long, for better game quality. ooc is intended for players to talk about their absence or ask questions, discuss issues which cannot be brought to game world by other means.

ooc has nothing to do with internal policy plans, that would be the same when in the middle of theater play, actors would take off their costumes and begin explaining to visitors that "they are not so bad guys as their characters, and have to do some nasty things because of scenario demands". that is simply game-killer, and those who use it become monopolistic game-owners excluding everyone who want to play game according to game rules.

as a individual game player who simply wants to play game as it is intended according to game rules described, i feel completely overpowered by ooc clans on one side and different kind of meta-gaming on the other, and i have no chance to oppose such prevailing powers materialized through madly monolithic character  slot-hives.

if you play chess you are forbidden to leave your table to discuss your game with others, which also applies to each and every game which has any sort of competition included.

[Stue (DC)]

Just as an aside, there have been many, many IC discussions in Darka over the past couple years about giving up the whole mercenary thing.

Also:OOC discussion in the realm does not mean that you have to avoid IC conflict. Players can discuss OOC the types of play they like, and then IC guide the realm in that direction. That does not remove fun, or even conflict. In fact, it can help people have /more/ fun, by helping tailor the game experience toward something that the players like. That could just as easily be /toward/ something with more intra-realm as it could be toward something with less of the same. Realms like Republic of Fwuvoghor thrived on IC conflict, and the players there loved it.

again i heard no single word of explanation why would anything of it be needed to be planned ooc? if you like some sort of players experience, found guild with such rules involved and play to try to achieve it, you may succeed or not. if there are many players that like such course, why would not you succeed? what ooc talking has to do with it?

i would summarize my opinion as simple as possible: any kind of ooc planning related to anything in game world kills the best and the funniest part of bm and is likely one of causes why we have dead-boring realms around where nothing ever happens.

to be as clear as possible - i find any kind of such ooc planning completely and absolutely unfair.

[vonGenf]

that would be the same when in the middle of theater play, actors would take off their costumes and begin explaining to visitors that "they are not so bad guys as their characters, and have to do some nasty things because of scenario demands".

Thank you, this is exactly how I feel.

Of course, the actors can talk to each others behind the scene. Not all theater has to be improv, after all. It's fine to follow a script.

But if you're including everyone in the theater, then it's not really theater anymore, is it? There has to be an audience.

[Solari]

I'll be perfectly honest and say that I really don't care for roleplaying my characters as well as I could.  I say this coming from a very long and intensive roleplaying background (bringing some BM players into a new game, even).  IMO, roleplay by letter doesn't allow for the kind of quick feedback necessary to develop a character that's exciting to play.  Maybe some people like to completely script their character story, but I don't.  Half the fun comes from dialog and interaction, and we don't really have that in the same way other RP-heavy games do.  It's possible, but for me it requires more effort than I'm willing to give at the moment.

Instead, I usually just take a piece of my own personality, or some concept/dynamic that I've been eager to explore, and infuse my character with it.  I don't see a problem with playing this way because I've always been up front about it.  That doesn't mean there needs to be an OOC planning, but I think we've done such a wonderful job of ruining trust between players with PvP and infighting that it's often necessary to accomplish anything at all.

There are very few players who remain entirely in character, avoid OOC discussion, and still manage to have long, productive and eventful character lives.  Most players that claim to do so are, in my experience, overstating their case.  The point of this screed is just to say that this is a very old issue that boils down to principle and playing style.  There's no right or wrong about it.

EDIT: After reading a few more posts, I'm really getting tired of seeing the same people conjuring up OOC bogeymen and plots to compensate for their incredibly !@#$ty circumstances IC.