Guild/Temple Estates

[De-Legro]

While that's a coherent line of thought, I'd point out that if it's only meant to be RP anyways, why should people bother with game-handled religions? Most religions could have the same structure and advantages with a lot less costs by sticking with a purely RPed religion instead of one founded via game mechanics.

I, for one, stick with the old religions that have been up for a while, but I've completely given up on ever founding a new one unless things change. Been there, done that. Thousands of gold for temples, endless begging for funds, constant preaching which feels more like bureau work than anything, atrocious upkeeps, that only got worse now with the new taxes, to maintain medium to large religions, etc. All of that for...? Messaging? Sure, it's an advantage, but in most cases, all the followers are in a position that allows them to communicate with each other easily anyways. Religious maintenance tools? Takes months to convert well-populated regions, and with a single calm followers you typically end up losing a week's worth of converts for the gains equivalent to what a courtier would have had. Why bother? Offensive tools? Good luck converting enough followers to use it. And if you do, the damage is usually no greater than a looting attempt, may as well save your time and just come with a unit instead.

In some cases, it's worth the costs of founding a religion. In most of these, though, a single temple is all they'd ever need to satisfy their needs.

The approach of dumping all the religious duties on the priests is a problem, imo. On one hand, they are asked to provide all the RP to make the faith dynamic and alive. On the other hand, all of their tools concern *regions*, and not nobles. They feel like glorified courtiers. If you ask me, it's no wonder almost nobody wants to bother being a priest, and that a good chunk of those who do probably only do it for the hour/travel system more than anything.

Well its often for RP reasons that we choose to use in game Religions. For exmaple if you want to RP having a opulent temple, then it helps if you actually have one. If you want to claim your religion has more temples then anyone else, it would be hard to do if you didn't actually have one. Again you are thinking of what a in game religion provides in terms of "advantages" instead of seeing how the current mechanics can tie into RP. I really fail to see where the game forces Priest to do all the RP work, we have several non priest working quite a lot on RP, far more then some of our priest in fact. The "tools" priest have should inhibit RP, or prevent it. They can be used to add to RP but they are hardly required for it.

Again I see the complaints about upkeep, like I posted before The Manifest Path has 15 modest temples, most level 2-3 one level 6 and we pay a total of 18 gold maintenance.

[Psyche]

Religions aren't too nerfed, though they'll good once the new estate system is finished and allows RTOs again.  I've had success with organizing heavy preaching in an enemy realm combined with regular warfare in their lands.  The enemy seems to be tying themselves up defending and repairing regions.  The religion is now the dominant faith in the majority of their regions, so it adds up across the board when they arrest a priest.  It's all about knowing how and when to use faith.

[Tom]

Well its often for RP reasons that we choose to use in game Religions. For exmaple if you want to RP having a opulent temple, then it helps if you actually have one.e.

'nough said.

[Bedwyr]

I don't understand why people think religions are weak.  I really, really don't.  Yes, you can accomplish more, in theory, with that much gold in troops.  But not with the moral high ground.  And not in peaceful situations.  And not in ways that don't make it look like you're hostile.  All of these are worth the extra price in gold.

Having played a powerful Ruler and now a powerful Founder/Ruler, I can say quite definitively that I have more game-mechanic power as a religious leader...And as with Rulership, the RP power of a religious leader is what you make with it.