Message #35883

[Vellos]

Torture reports are too reliable. A recent (and ongoing) incident in Dwilight with a GM demanding a torture report reveal a specific message as that is the only completely reliable evidence is clear OOC messing with the game.

In real life, torture was not always reliable. It shouldn't be in BM.

I suggest that the torture report randomly remove some words from messages. Adding would be seemingly impossible; I can't think of a way to automatically add plausible content. Changing the recipient list would seem possible.

But random removing of words (or sentences?) seems like it could be possible, and would help to remove the perfect validity of torture reports.

[Lorgan]

You're talking about the asylon advy?

I think the biggest reason for the reliable report is that advies don't send/get a lot of letters or reports to begin with so it should be pretty easy to get the one you want out of him.

[Indirik]

That is an interesting point. This is the reason that "attaching/forwarding" feature requests have been denied. Simply because if there was a completely reliable way of forwarding messages, then any way of sending messages other than that would never be trusted as being genuine. i.e. Anyone message that is not passed by the "official" method is a guaranteed forgery.

But even if this suggestion were implemented, it would not prevent someone from demanding a torture report that shows a specific message. Just because it was munged a bit doesn't mean that it wouldn't provide the requested information. Even if it was munged a bit, it would be much more reliable than a manual forward. After all, a manual forward could be 100% fake. A torture report would at least be guaranteed to be from a message that actually was sent, and contain at least most of the original content.

[vonGenf]

a GM demanding a torture report reveal a specific message as that is the only completely reliable evidence

Is that how it was worded? It's also completely not SMA. What is a torture report anyway? If you question the torturer, why will he say the truth? Unless you torture him too in an endless cycle, of course.

I mean, it's fine to ask you to torture someone, but if it was worded "I want a torture report as I know other types or reports are not reliable".... let's say I'm not impressed.

[Chenier]

Is that how it was worded? It's also completely not SMA. What is a torture report anyway? If you question the torturer, why will he say the truth? Unless you torture him too in an endless cycle, of course.

I mean, it's fine to ask you to torture someone, but if it was worded "I want a torture report as I know other types or reports are not reliable".... let's say I'm not impressed.

Pretty much. He wants a torture report attached, which I find rather lame.

[Indirik]

Come to think of it, it's no more non-SMA than demanding a scout report... or any other kind of report, really. I mean, if the GM were demanding, say a scout report of Paisly, would you be complaining? Or are you just complaining because this particular report is harder to get than the other kinds?

[Chenier]

Come to think of it, it's no more non-SMA than demanding a scout report... or any other kind of report, really. I mean, if the GM were demanding, say a scout report of Paisly, would you be complaining? Or are you just complaining because this particular report is harder to get than the other kinds?

Maybe we should be able to forge scout reports, then?

I really find demanding game-generated reports to be meta-gaming. But torture reports do indeed have the undesireable side-effect of being huge drains on h/p for the judge and of providing letters completely at random, so you could torture a guy 5 times in a row and possibly not even get what you want. Which is ridiculous, as the guy *wants* to tell it to us. Basically, we are torturing the guy to have him tell us what he is already telling us? Makes no RP sense. It's just to have it on a game report.

[De-Legro]

Maybe we should be able to forge scout reports, then?

I really find demanding game-generated reports to be meta-gaming. But torture reports do indeed have the undesireable side-effect of being huge drains on h/p for the judge and of providing letters completely at random, so you could torture a guy 5 times in a row and possibly not even get what you want. Which is ridiculous, as the guy *wants* to tell it to us. Basically, we are torturing the guy to have him tell us what he is already telling us? Makes no RP sense. It's just to have it on a game report.

Sure no RP sense, unless you remember the Zuma thought process is alien to humans, and that perhaps they find ritual pain important in these matters. Or perhaps the fact that he knows the Judge will suffer in the eyes of his people, and some other human will experience great pain is an unspoken part of his demands? Plenty of options really, if you think about it for a bit.

[Vellos]

Is that how it was worded? It's also completely not SMA. What is a torture report anyway? If you question the torturer, why will he say the truth? Unless you torture him too in an endless cycle, of course.

I mean, it's fine to ask you to torture someone, but if it was worded "I want a torture report as I know other types or reports are not reliable".... let's say I'm not impressed.

Basically yes.

Even though his own ambassador can confirm the validity of the message, he is demanding a specific message be revealed by torture, and that we attach it in a torture report.

The message isn't secret; I'll put it here:
"Terran human not need give weapons. Terran human must proof letter. Must give torture report from any human that got letter that include letter so we know true it not more lie!"

So a daimon who can't string together grammar and doesn't understand basic diplomacy... somehow mysteriously understands that torture reports are un-forgeable.

---

Here's another way to decrease reliability:

Swap "senders." Have some random % of messages be sent by a random one of the victim's contacts.

[Vellos]

Sure no RP sense, unless you remember the Zuma thought process is alien to humans, and that perhaps they find ritual pain important in these matters. Or perhaps the fact that he knows the Judge will suffer in the eyes of his people, and some other human will experience great pain is an unspoken part of his demands? Plenty of options really, if you think about it for a bit.

I get that. Demanding torture makes total sense.

Demanding the torture report as proof of what everyone already knows, including the GM's own officials, is meta-gaming.

The GM told me to start a Magistrates case. I shall do so shortly.

[De-Legro]

I get that. Demanding torture makes total sense.

Demanding the torture report as proof of what everyone already knows, including the GM's own officials, is meta-gaming.

The GM told me to start a Magistrates case. I shall do so shortly.

First you are assuming the Zuma completely trust their Ambassador, given that the ambassador is Garrett they probably have good reasons not to. Secondly you assume that when he talks about "proof" he talks about game mechanics. Again the Zuma could have many RP reasons to think information extracted by pain is some how inherently more reliable, perhaps they have superstitions that imply it would be impossible for someone to forge a letter containing the information gathered in such a way. Or perhaps saying it is required as "proof" is just a misdirection for the real reason they want someone tortured.

[Indirik]

Demanding the torture report as proof of what everyone already knows,

Except, apparently, the Zuma don't "know" it.

[Vellos]

First you are assuming the Zuma completely trust their Ambassador, given that the ambassador is Garrett they probably have good reasons not to. Secondly you assume that when he talks about "proof" he talks about game mechanics. Again the Zuma could have many RP reasons to think information extracted by pain is some how inherently more reliable, perhaps they have superstitions that imply it would be impossible for someone to forge a letter containing the information gathered in such a way. Or perhaps saying it is required as "proof" is just a misdirection for the real reason they want someone tortured.

Alternatively, as I have said...

THE GM TOLD ME THAT WAS WHY HE WANTED A TORTURE REPORT, even OOC. And he suggested a Magistrates case because we both understood that to be the issue.

There isn't another RP reason. MAYBE there could be hypothetical reasons that COULD have been used: but they weren't used.

[De-Legro]

Alternatively, as I have said...

THE GM TOLD ME THAT WAS WHY HE WANTED A TORTURE REPORT, even OOC. And he suggested a Magistrates case because we both understood that to be the issue.

There isn't another RP reason. MAYBE there could be hypothetical reasons that COULD have been used: but they weren't used.

Or he suggested a magistrates case because he was interested in the wider opinion. And as I was recently reminding on IRC, in most cases game mechanics can be considered IC information.

[Vellos]

Except that the game mechanics making torture 100% reliable:
1. Was clearly never intended as a mechanic for forwarding messages
2. Has absolutely no bearing on any real torture
3. Seems more likely a product of convenience (unreliable torture seems difficult to code, as we are discovering) than any type of intent

I'm sure he was just interested in a wider opinion: on whether using torture reports as message forwarding is okay or not. He thinks it is, I think it isn't. But that doesn't change the fact that none of those arguments about possible RP validity hold any weight, because none of them apply here.

WHAT happened is very obvious and clear cut, and neither side is in much dispute over it. The only question is if it's okay.