Rework the Vulgarity flag feature

[Vellos]

Yeah... I don't see how it makes it a worse crime because I admitted to doing it, and then admitted I was wrong on the matter. We have ex-multi-cheaters on the forum too, don't we: people who used to run multis, either got caught/confessed, and closed their multis/started new "clean" accounts? Don't we have such people? Should they be forever prohibited from playing?

Yes, it was abuse. I did not believe it was so at the time. My reasons for believing that were many and, at the time, seemed reasonably good. Those reasons were not predicated on some wildly deviant root-understanding of BM's rules. The main deviancy in basic understanding of BM society I have, historically, has been to demand hyper-realism, not laxity on abuse. What I did was abuse (though, curiously, I was never able to find any instance where any leaked knowledge was actually ever used to any effect, not that that really matters much). I know that now. I won't do it again. You can choose to disbelieve me if you want, I guess. But, crucially, what I did was not categorized as abuse at the time. In hindsight, I absolutely see the flaws in my reasoning and see what I should have done.

Anyway, I've alreay taken what actions I deem appropriate on this. Everyone else is free to make their own decisions on it. I certainly won't be trusting any characters of a player that has admitted and defended such "creative" interpretations of the rules in future.

I am extremely disappointed to hear that. I hope you are not saying that you will engage in IC discrimination based on an OOC debate. As it would happen, we do have two characters in the same realm: Kindara. I want you to know that I do not intend to take out any OOC frustration I may have with you in an IC fashion, whatever decisions you may make.

[Gustav Kuriga]

*raises a paw* I would like to point out that I agree with Velax. Admitting you did something wrong does not bar you from the consequences of your actions.

And, also, it seems kind of like an ex post facto rule. Most nations restrict or prohibit such laws. The idea that I could be punished for an action that nobody had ever stated was abuse (and which I did not think was abuse at the time, as I "learned" how to do it after I observed others doing it) based on a rule made well after the action seems a bit unfair. I'm not going to do it going forward; and I would hardly say I have a track record of abuse.

I would also like to point out that such laws are in regards to laws that did not come into effect until after the person in question committed the acts. They do not apply to someone admitting to it after they have done something against the law.

Yeah... I don't see how it makes it a worse crime because I admitted to doing it, and then admitted I was wrong on the matter. We have ex-multi-cheaters on the forum too, don't we: people who used to run multis, either got caught/confessed, and closed their multis/started new "clean" accounts? Don't we have such people? Should they be forever prohibited from playing?

Yes, it was abuse. I did not believe it was so at the time. My reasons for believing that were many and, at the time, seemed reasonably good. Those reasons were not predicated on some wildly deviant root-understanding of BM's rules. The main deviancy in basic understanding of BM society I have, historically, has been to demand hyper-realism, not laxity on abuse. What I did was abuse (though, curiously, I was never able to find any instance where any leaked knowledge was actually ever used to any effect, not that that really matters much). I know that now. I won't do it again. You can choose to disbelieve me if you want, I guess. But, crucially, what I did was not categorized as abuse at the time. In hindsight, I absolutely see the flaws in my reasoning and see what I should have done.

I am extremely disappointed to hear that. I hope you are not saying that you will engage in IC discrimination based on an OOC debate. As it would happen, we do have two characters in the same realm: Kindara. I want you to know that I do not intend to take out any OOC frustration I may have with you in an IC fashion, whatever decisions you may make.

I would like to point out that those multi-cheaters had their accounts locked, so they were in fact punished. I know that, since I was one of those multi-cheaters at one time. Velax isn't saying you should be forever banned from the game. He's saying you should face the consequences of what you've done. Which you really haven't. You've had nothing done to your account. An apology and admission of guilt does not equal no punishment.

[egamma]

Vellos/Gustav, you are missing the ex post facto comment earlier in the thread.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ex_post_facto_law

Basically, he shouldn't be punished for something that wasn't against the rules at the time he did it.

[James]

...Basically, he shouldn't be punished for something that wasn't against the rules at the time he did it.

It has been described as "...a plain and obvious abuse..." which to me reads as something that should not be seen as acceptable, even if it wasn't explicitly stated as an abuse before the actions were taken.

Yes, he has said he won't do it again and that his opinion has now changed which is great and commendable, however, it was an obvious abuse of the system, which I think is the point others are trying to make.

[Gustav Kuriga]

Vellos/Gustav, you are missing the ex post facto comment earlier in the thread.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ex_post_facto_law

Basically, he shouldn't be punished for something that wasn't against the rules at the time he did it.

Funnily enough, that is the exact law I'm referring to...

[Vellos]

I would also like to point out that such laws are in regards to laws that did not come into effect until after the person in question committed the acts. They do not apply to someone admitting to it after they have done something against the law.

And the "law" in question has not come into effect until after the act.

Are people seriously saying that I should have my account locked because I abused the vulgarity feature by interpreting it as a complete, total IC function? I will admit: I am shocked. I'm not surprised at hearing one person, like Velax, say it. I am surprised to hear more people agreeing with it.

I think this is teaching me that, henceforth, I should be less honest about how I play BM. Who knows what other things I may be doing that I think are perfectly fine that, if I bring them up for consideration by others, they may decide my account should be locked?

Ya'll do realize how crazy that is, right? Like, if someone ever finds a "novel abuse" (as I seem to have), and reports it, say, after having done it a while before ever realizing it was abuse, they should be locked? What? That makes no sense. That's a wonderful way to get people to not report potential abuses.

Incentives. They matter.

[Vellos]

I would like to point out that those multi-cheaters had their accounts locked, so they were in fact punished. I know that, since I was one of those multi-cheaters at one time. Velax isn't saying you should be forever banned from the game. He's saying you should face the consequences of what you've done. Which you really haven't. You've had nothing done to your account. An apology and admission of guilt does not equal no punishment.

I quote to you from "Threats of reprimand due to playing speed," a verdict arrived at in an 8-0 ruling by the Magistrates:

"Given that no punishments were actually handed out, and given that the player of Balewin clearly had no malicious intent, and given that the player of Balewin evidently understands that he overstepped his bounds, the Magistrates will only give a warning this time."

I think maybe only Velax has suggested I had malicious intent. I clearly understand that I was wrong. No player appears to have been harmed by my actions (much to my characters' consternation). Therefore...

An apology and admission of guilt does not equal no punishment.

I think you messed up your grammar, maybe?

But, I agree with you as you accidentally stated it: an apology and admission of guilt does not equal no punishment. Conveniently, in many countries, apology is often a component of punishment or sentencing, especially in civil cases, the premise being that it is a kind of social or reputational punishment, I think.

[Velax]

Ya'll do realize how crazy that is, right? Like, if someone ever finds a "novel abuse" (as I seem to have), and reports it, say, after having done it a while before ever realizing it was abuse, they should be locked? What? That makes no sense. That's a wonderful way to get people to not report potential abuses.

Incentives. They matter.

So you, and anyone else, should be allowed to abuse a game mechanic in a manner not intended in order to gain an advantage over other players (textbook definition of an exploit, by the way) for as long as they like, as long as they report it before it's officially declared an abuse? And they get away scott free? Really? Is this the sort of behavior we should be encouraging?

Edit: Should just point out that you did not report this abuse, either. You mentioned it it passing because it was relative to the thread, and in a manner stating it was a perfectly legitimate thing to do. If this thread had never been created, you'd have happily continued using this exploit for months or years, so don't try to paint yourself as the abuse-finder here.

I think this is teaching me that, henceforth, I should be less honest about how I play BM. Who knows what other things I may be doing that I think are perfectly fine that, if I bring them up for consideration by others, they may decide my account should be locked?

I wish I could think you were joking there, but I don't think you are.

You know what? I don't think you did it maliciously. Well, no, you did, I guess. You were deliberately trying to hurt those realms you were a part of in a manner that carried no consequences for you. But I don't think you actually thought of it as abuse. I don't think you'd volunteer the information so freely if you thought what you were doing was actually abuse. Unfortunately, stupidity and ignorance has never been an excuse to get away with crimes. Anyone with the power to actually reason things through logically should have been able to tell this was blatant abuse.

[De-Legro]

This is starting to remind me of the case against the Zuma GM. Vellos made a mistake. Unlike most multi cheats, who are both violating a explicit rule, and generally having their family PROFIT from the action, there is no evidence that Vellos profited at all from his mistake. Thanks to his honesty we now have clarified how the vulgarity feature works.

This game is NOT a court of law. I have no idea how we appear to attract so many aspiring lawyers to the game either. As the social contract says, play the game like you are playing with friends. I sure as hell wouldn't enact punitive punishments against one of my friends if they came clean about a mistake they made regarding the rules.

[Tom]

As the social contract says, play the game like you are playing with friends. I sure as hell wouldn't enact punitive punishments against one of my friends if they came clean about a mistake they made regarding the rules.

This

[Vellos]

So you, and anyone else, should be allowed to abuse a game mechanic in a manner not intended in order to gain an advantage over other players (textbook definition of an exploit, by the way) for as long as they like, as long as they report it before it's officially declared an abuse? And they get away scott free? Really? Is this the sort of behavior we should be encouraging?

Should we be encouraging people to report abuses? Yes. Absolutely.

Edit: Should just point out that you did not report this abuse, either. You mentioned it it passing because it was relative to the thread, and in a manner stating it was a perfectly legitimate thing to do. If this thread had never been created, you'd have happily continued using this exploit for months or years, so don't try to paint yourself as the abuse-finder here.

No, I didn't report it, as in, I didn't bring it up as "I think this might be abuse..." because I didn't think it might be abuse. But because I believed there was a social system in place where honesty was rewarded, I felt comfortable telling the truth about what I did. Yes, if I had never had any reason to think it was abuse, I would have kept doing it. Obviously. Equally obviously, I was mistaken.

You know what? I don't think you did it maliciously. Well, no, you did, I guess. You were deliberately trying to hurt those realms you were a part of in a manner that carried no consequences for you.

Again, please separate IC/OOC. Yes, my character(s) was/were acting maliciously. I completely agree. Their targets were primarily individuals, not realms, but that's not important. The point, though, is that I as a player was not acting with malice. Please, please, please separate IC and OOC.

But I don't think you actually thought of it as abuse. I don't think you'd volunteer the information so freely if you thought what you were doing was actually abuse. Unfortunately, stupidity and ignorance has never been an excuse to get away with crimes. Anyone with the power to actually reason things through logically should have been able to tell this was blatant abuse.

If I had thought it was abuse then I wouldn't have been doing it in the first place. If I had thought it was abuse and I was doing it anyways, no, I wouldn't have confessed. But that's an irrelevant hypothetical. I made a mistake, I argued my case, I realized I was wrong, I am convinced of it. What I did was abuse. But, as I understand it (maybe I am wrong), you seem to be saying that I am stupid and ignorant, incapable of reasoning through things logically, and maliciously using a game feature to gain some kind of OOC power. And I don't understand where these accusations come from. One error does not an idiot make.

Am I correct in believing that you regard me as stupid and malicious? And, as I asked earlier, am I correct in believing you intend to take this IC? I ask because two of our characters share a realm, Kindara, and I want to know if it would be wiser for me to emigrate or pause.