Total Land Area Data

[Vellos]

Regions on testing now list population density and land area. IMHO, that is AWESOME.

Could we get "total land area" listed on realm stats, or at least the "Realm and Regions" page? Overall population density would be cool too.

[Zakilevo]

I really like this idea. It would be good to know indeed. Maybe we should also get some data on what % of the area is badland/mountain/plain etc.

[fodder]

4 peasants/sq.mi. in a 10k pop townsland...
46.8 peasants/sq.mi. in a 60k pop city
2.2 peasants/sq.mi. in a 10k pop rural

[Indirik]

Various regions will almost certainly have different pop densities. And it will also change as the population changes, too.

[Vellos]

Various regions will almost certainly have different pop densities. And it will also change as the population changes, too.

Indeed, that makes sense. I'd just like to be able to have aggregate data easily accessible. I was kind of surprised to find that Terran is much smaller than I thought, compared to Medieval European states.

[Indirik]

I agree, it would be interesting to see.

[egamma]

4 peasants/sq.mi. in a 10k pop townsland...
46.8 peasants/sq.mi. in a 60k pop city
2.2 peasants/sq.mi. in a 10k pop rural

city:60-92 (not sure of Port Raviel needs a massive adjustment)
rural:4
townlsand: 3.4-5.8

[Tom]

Hold your horses, please.

I just added this today because, well with the geo data we use for the dynamic map, we actually have this data now. Told you the dynamic map would bring you a ton of really cool stuff.

But it's really just a quick hack. And the numbers are... well, don't really compare them to real-world numbers, please. They're just arbitrary geographic units, and we call them "miles" because of atmosphere.

[Vellos]

Hold your horses, please.

I just added this today because, well with the geo data we use for the dynamic map, we actually have this data now. Told you the dynamic map would bring you a ton of really cool stuff.

But it's really just a quick hack. And the numbers are... well, don't really compare them to real-world numbers, please. They're just arbitrary geographic units, and we call them "miles" because of atmosphere.

Oh, I'm fine with it being smaller. Wasn't complaining at all really. I did assume that the land areas were proportional to travel distances; is that not the case?

Anyways, I didn't assume it'd be immediately available; just thought I'd suggest it since it seems like it'd be simple enough to do.

[fodder]

was just wondering... because i have absolutely no idea what kind of numbers would look like back when..

[Tom]

Neither do I. :-)

If someone wants to do some research and then suggest what the numbers should look like - I'll be happy to change them.

[Vellos]

The numbers are on the extreme low end of Medieval population density.

Source for population here:
http://www.fordham.edu/halsall/source/pop-in-eur.asp

Those numbers, as the disclaimer notes, are speculative. But, I put together my own chart with land areas for the regions I was reasonably confident of their extent. Depending on year and area, the lowest density I got was 4.13 people per square mile (British Isles, 500 and 600 AD). The highest I got was 85.95 people per square mile (Italy, 1340).

I only did Italy, France/Low Countries, Spain/Portugal, and British Isles; others I wasn't sure what borders they were using.

Area averages:
Italy- 49.51
France- 37.84
Iberia- 26.41
British Isles- 18.15

Year averages:
500- 19.21
650- 13.34
1000- 28.75
1340- 61.51
1450- 42.06

I think, given Dwilight's recent colonization status, more monsters, harsh seasons, etc, the best "year" to compare to is probably 650 or 1000. So an average continent-wide density of 13.34-28.74.

Local density, then, could range from the more wild and unpopulated British isles (4.13 ppl/sqm in 650; maybe suitable for border realms and recent colonies) to the urban, developed settings of Italy in the 1000's (42.98 pp/sqm in 1000; probably suitable for D'Hara at max population, or maybe Lurias or something).

Notably, these populations are not simply a function of urbanization. In Medieval Europe, there was very large variation, apparently, in rural population density: and not only due to war and famine, but due to long-run things like weather and agricultural possibilities.

The most densely population Dwilight realms are D'Hara and Luria Nova. They have 10 and 9.1 ppl/sqm, respectively. That is, the most heavily populated parts of Dwilight have the demographic character of a lightly populated region of Europe in the 600's, a time not know for its high population density.

In sum, Dwilight realms, compared to Medieval realms, look somewhat underpopulated compared to land area. This could be adjusted by re-adjusting population, or by adjusting land area, further shrinking it. If that choice is made, I hope travel times will be shrunk simultaneously. Notably, Dwilight's entire human population is not even half of Italy's population in 1000 AD, despite travel times indicating a continent thousands of miles in length.

In sum, if it is realism we want, population should be increased, but not uniformly. The lightly populated realms are within the range for lightly populated parts of Europe. But some parts of Dwilight should have much greater population density, both rural and urban.

Maybe we want realism, maybe not. As I noted earlier in this thread, I'm fine with having very unbalanced areas. I think it'd be neat to have highly variated population patterns; maybe a rural in High Toprak will have 3x the density of one in the Maroccidens.

[fodder]

i guess the numbers would make more sense if i think of it as a cluster right in the middle (or somewhere) of the region.. and then just a big load of nothing all round, dragging down the numbers.

just dead odd to think you won't see another person in a town until you travel 1/4 miles XD

[Vellos]

What is odd is having an urban ceter be 300 square miles. :P That's bigger than the city of Chicago!

[Bedwyr]

In sum, if it is realism we want, population should be increased, but not uniformly. The lightly populated realms are within the range for lightly populated parts of Europe. But some parts of Dwilight should have much greater population density, both rural and urban.

Or, far more easily, we redefine the area units so that the population density numbers make more sense.