Reworking Trade

[Longmane]

a) something like in the Civ games, where if you control a resource, you can use it, and you need a certain number of resources for some things. So controlling that mountain region may give you x points of metal and some high-end recruitment centers need metal points to produce soldiers.

Something like that would sooo fit in with a long time feature request I've been working on, and best thing of all is with it not likely happen for a while I might actually have finished by then.  :D

b) maybe with the new trade system, these resources could be tradeable goods. I'm really not sure about that, though.

Perhaps that could be worked in with the ideas of fairs if they ever happen, not so much the regular type of one, insomuch as happens in your own realm every week/month what ever, but something along the lines of the major ones each Provence in france  held once a year in medieval times, but in this case it being each realm.

[Eithad]

a) something like in the Civ games, where if you control a resource, you can use it, and you need a certain number of resources for some things. So controlling that mountain region may give you x points of metal and some high-end recruitment centers need metal points to produce soldiers.

b) maybe with the new trade system, these resources could be tradeable goods. I'm really not sure about that, though.

The major issue I see with a) is that it puts small realms at a huge disadvantage compared with large realms which span across multiple resource types unless the resources had a smaller range of effects, so instead of realm wide, maybe duchy wide or just surrounding regions. The feature is probably still far away so don't really need to balance it now.

[Indirik]

Duchy-wide effects are always an interesting option. But then this leads to possible abuses of "let's cram all of our regions into one big duchy". Or swapping regions between duchies to max the effects. That leads to more artificial constraints to try and limit the size of a duchy. The players then complain of all the artificial restrictions on their freedoms, etc.

[Zakilevo]

Well we can change things around by making regions duchy centric rather capital centric.

Farther your region is from the duchy capital, it becomes hard to maintain the region? Like reduced income and food production etc?

[Perth]

Well we can change things around by making regions duchy centric rather capital centric.

Farther your region is from the duchy capital, it becomes hard to maintain the region? Like reduced income and food production etc?

I think that would be an example of an artificial constraint that he was talking about.  ;)

[Calanar]

I haven't got the time this morning to run through all 6 pages of comments, so I guess I'll just ask, and if I missed it, I apologize.

With the new system, on Dwilight, my character's region is starving. However, there's enough food in the granary for another 360 days. (We just took the region, so population is next to nothing.)

How do I get rid of the starving status if there's plenty of food?

[De-Legro]

I haven't got the time this morning to run through all 6 pages of comments, so I guess I'll just ask, and if I missed it, I apologize.

With the new system, on Dwilight, my character's region is starving. However, there's enough food in the granary for another 360 days. (We just took the region, so population is next to nothing.)

How do I get rid of the starving status if there's plenty of food?

I think is should correct itself over the next few days. Each day the region is properly fed it loses some of the accumulated starvation counter. I think.

[Chenier]

Good! It is high time that economic elements enter more into diplomacy.

I think you overestimate its impacts. It only truly affects the importing realm in a serious manner, as the trade profits from the exporter and much lower than the costs of a war. Meanwhile, very, very few realms in the game are import-heavy and there is usually an abundance of potential trade partners to work with. On Dwilight, D'Hara is the biggest importer (probably of the whole game, too), but it faces no real competition aside from the Zuma. And while it wants to trade with everyone, there's no incentive to take any action against those who deny trade, as every realm that could hamper our trade is part of a bloc that could bring us in a very costly war we have no interest in waging.

And besides, the restraints are becoming passive instead of active: instead of going out of their way to block us from buying from their lords or trading with their neighbor, all they have to do is sit around and do nothing. This reduces interaction, because it requires nothing on their part and there's very little to set the intentional failure to trade apart from the "can't be arsed" failure to trade.

I'm not saying the new system sucks, and I do think that simplification is overall a good thing, as most players really don't want to deal with trade and as such the simpler the system is, the better it is for them. Simpler code = less bugs, which is good too. But I simply can't agree with this conclusion that the new system will make economic elements enter diplomacy more. I'd figure it would make it matter even less, because we lose the ability to decide that we will sell to X for 40 gold, but to Y for 60 gold. Or that we will feed region X for 40 gold, but refuse to feed region Y even if it offers 60 gold. Everything is now up on the free and open market, the new system removes our power to do preferential trading. How can trade figure in diplomacy when everyone has open and free markets?

Economy, in general, always affects diplomacy in one way or another. Gold production always has (quest for rich regions, desire for wealthy allies). Food production helped consolidate alliances. They always had their role, and whether that role was significant or not is really just a matter of opinion. However, they will only significantly increase in importance if they become scarce. Then people would consider them more importantly, as D'Hara decides everything according to food. However, I highly doubt that's the best way to go, because scarcity means winners and losers, and therefore a lot of frustration. D'Hara's unique, and I always enjoyed managing imports and looking forward to the day our trade network would be great enough for us to monopolize trade on Dwilight. A dream more than a project, really. But I'm pretty sure most players would bore themselves to death in D'Hara, and I would never suggest imposing such economic burdens on significant portions of the player base. We colonized the isles knowing we would live and die according to our capacity to import food from abroad, nobody else threw themselves in such a situation of anticipated food deficits. As such, be it with food or new resources, I don't think we should ever make the lack of resources become of greater importance than it is now.

[Tom]

I would wait with any estimates on how the new system affects diplomacy until the boosts given during the switch run out, which should be in a few days. Then we will, for the first time, get a real picture on how important food is.

[egamma]

we lose the ability to decide that we will sell to X for 40 gold, but to Y for 60 gold. Or that we will feed region X for 40 gold, but refuse to feed region Y even if it offers 60 gold.

You can do this--there are new restrictions on "sell only to your realm" or "sell only to your ally". and, of course, you can simply choose not to use sell orders at all, but instead utilize only buy orders.

[Chenier]

I would wait with any estimates on how the new system affects diplomacy until the boosts given during the switch run out, which should be in a few days. Then we will, for the first time, get a real picture on how important food is.

Crap... Gotta run to a marketplace. There seem to be so few around... None of my characters have had a chance to get to one yet.

You can do this--there are new restrictions on "sell only to your realm" or "sell only to your ally". and, of course, you can simply choose not to use sell orders at all, but instead utilize only buy orders.

This is extremely limiting, compared to what we used to be able to do. We can't use food against individual dukes anymore (a strategy used by many over the years). Also, this assumes that everyone at "peace" is viewed equally, and all "allies" are valued the same, etc. Furthermore, "can trade/can't trade" is far, far away from preferential/discriminating price policies. I also don't see why we are implementing new features based on the old diplomacy system, when "peace/alliance/etc." is supposed to end up scrapped.

[De-Legro]

Crap... Gotta run to a marketplace. There seem to be so few around... None of my characters have had a chance to get to one yet.

This is extremely limiting, compared to what we used to be able to do. We can't use food against individual dukes anymore (a strategy used by many over the years). Also, this assumes that everyone at "peace" is viewed equally, and all "allies" are valued the same, etc. Furthermore, "can trade/can't trade" is far, far away from preferential/discriminating price policies. I also don't see why we are implementing new features based on the old diplomacy system, when "peace/alliance/etc." is supposed to end up scrapped.

Because the new system is not going to be implemented any time soon. Treaties aren't on the near horizons, sorry

In terms of preferential price polices, it works the same as always. You had to know when caravans were going to arrive for the old system to work anyway, there was no magic button. So now you have to set up buy/sell orders when the appropriate part is ready to fill them. Pretty simple really

The way people used the old system for preferential/discriminating price policies was never intended at any rate. It was a artefact of people micromanaging the system. Do you really think the design process went along the line of, oh and some super active or motivated people will be able to organise food sales to occur just as caravans are arriving or a trader is ready to do the trade?

Anyway the Luria's have been having good success with just putting up a buy order when we know the other party is ready to purchase the food, allows us to set the price for each buyer.

[Chenier]

Because the new system is not going to be implemented any time soon. Treaties aren't on the near horizons, sorry

In terms of preferential price polices, it works the same as always. You had to know when caravans were going to arrive for the old system to work anyway, there was no magic button. So now you have to set up buy/sell orders when the appropriate part is ready to fill them. Pretty simple really

The way people used the old system for preferential/discriminating price policies was never intended at any rate. It was a artefact of people micromanaging the system. Do you really think the design process went along the line of, oh and some super active or motivated people will be able to organise food sales to occur just as caravans are arriving or a trader is ready to do the trade?

Anyway the Luria's have been having good success with just putting up a buy order when we know the other party is ready to purchase the food, allows us to set the price for each buyer.

Micromanagement? What *you* speak of is micromanagement. I never, ever toyed with my purchase prices according to what caravans where on their way.

Rather, I was simply the one sending all of the caravans all of the time. 95% of caravans that delivered food or gold in Paisly were sent by myself. And there was absolutely nothing complicated about this. Set and forget, once per week or so. I got used to which regions usually have food and good prices, and ended up sending them caravans every week, regardless of whether they were showing as trading or not. It was a routine, and a rather simple one that really didn't take much time or require much thinking to pull off. No need to think of when others produce, or when others are ready to buy, or when stocks are arriving. THAT is micromanagement. I couldn't be arsed with such details. All I needed was to check my send caravans page once per week, for about 4 minutes.

[De-Legro]

Micromanagement? What *you* speak of is micromanagement. I never, ever toyed with my purchase prices according to what caravans where on their way.

Rather, I was simply the one sending all of the caravans all of the time. 95% of caravans that delivered food or gold in Paisly were sent by myself. And there was absolutely nothing complicated about this. Set and forget, once per week or so. I got used to which regions usually have food and good prices, and ended up sending them caravans every week, regardless of whether they were showing as trading or not. It was a routine, and a rather simple one that really didn't take much time or require much thinking to pull off. No need to think of when others produce, or when others are ready to buy, or when stocks are arriving. THAT is micromanagement. I couldn't be arsed with such details. All I needed was to check my send caravans page once per week, for about 4 minutes.

Then it wasn't really preferential, since anyone could have purchased the food before your caravans arrived. What have you lost? The fact you had to wait days for the food you purchased to actually be in your warehouse and being used? You are really going to need to explain how the system is affecting you in the way you stated earlier.

[Chenier]

Then it wasn't really preferential, since anyone could have purchased the food before your caravans arrived. What have you lost? The fact you had to wait days for the food you purchased to actually be in your warehouse and being used? You are really going to need to explain how the system is affecting you in the way you stated earlier.

Well, I'm working a lot with how I understand the system to be, right now. I haven't actually gotten in any darn marketplace yet.

But the new system doesn't allow you to be able to say that "to you, I'll buy/sell at X", while giving another price to someone else. All the offers are up on the table. Port Nebel's low on food and production's !@#$ty? How do I give it food? Put a cheap offer on the market and hope that the duke gets to it first? Put an expensive offer and give him gold to compensate? What if I'm dealing with someone from a neighbor realm (where gold transfers don't work)?

Just feels like the free market was imposed on us. All offers become so transparent, and all of a sudden the government gets a lot more power over their lords over who they can or can't trade with.