Reworking Trade

[Penchant]

Also the restricting offers for 3 days sounds nice, but the time could also probably be cut down a bit too to not hamper food movement too much when regions are starving.

I disagree with cutting it down to help starving regions as thats the opposite of what we want because the way I see it with the 3 day limit if lords don't want their region to be starving they need to post offers for traders to do. I also disagree with the neccesity of s realm saying they need one of their nobles to be a trader because no matter the system I don't see it being true since I being a trader will surely hang around your realm as long as you want though if I am not making a profit I might start forcing the realm to pay me for coming which is doable.

[mykavykos]

I don't know how its working in Atamara, but in EC, where I have a steward/trader and a Lord, the system is not working.

[Velax]

You just have to have the food make two hops. Or hope a trade helps you out? Or hope someone becomes a trader?

Doesn't reducing lord range to one region do exactly what you said they shouldn't? Penalise lords rather than reward traders.

[Tom]

Here's my take on everything that was discussed:


I want to make brokering more competitive, so these are the changes I am considering. Some of them may seem like a stick, but they are really just things I wanted to add anyways:

   
• Implement rot for food on the market - this should be done anyways because otherwise putting food on the market on a deal you don't expect anyone to accept is a way to save food from rotting. The amount of rot would depend on a "virtual time", representing travel time for food, which will NOT be added, i.e. trading remains instant, but we simulate the travel time of the food through rot. In other words: The further away your trade partner, the more food will be lost in transit.
  Brokered deals will have dramatically reduced rot. Either half or even none at all. Since only traders can broker...
• 48 hours delay for offers to become available for trading, but they are available for brokering immediately. This represents the time delay of moving food around first to the market place and then to the recipient vs. sending it from the one to the other directly via a broker.
• I'm thinking about some advantage for unrestricted offers, but haven't yet come up with something good. But I want to encourage people on that. The only idea I have this far is to make the black market simply a copy of the regular market with all restrictions lifted. If restricted traders aren't 100% safe, I believe more people wouldn't bother to restrict them.
• We need automatic offers, on the old system of "if stockpile > x then put y bushels on the market for z gold" resp. "if stockpile < x then post an offer for y bushels for z gold". It needs a bit of work to integrate it with the new tax system and all, but it can work (bonds required could be taken from the tax collection, bonds gained would be added to the tax income).

[egamma]

I don't know how its working in Atamara, but in EC, where I have a steward/trader and a Lord, the system is not working.

How is the system not working? Please be specific.

[egamma]

Doesn't reducing lord range to one region do exactly what you said they shouldn't? Penalise lords rather than reward traders.

It gives the Lords what they had with ox carts. It's a step backwards, but not unheard of.

And still better than oxcarts since the trades are instant.

[Indirik]

There are nowhere near enough offers available on EC for a trader to function. In addition, the offers posted are always for odd quantities, or at ridiculous prices.

[mykavykos]

There are nowhere near enough offers available on EC for a trader to function. In addition, the offers posted are always for odd quantities, or at ridiculous prices.

Exactly.

   1. Implement rot for food on the market - this should be done anyways because otherwise putting food on the market on a deal you don't expect anyone to accept is a way to save food from rotting. The amount of rot would depend on a "virtual time", representing travel time for food, which will NOT be added, i.e. trading remains instant, but we simulate the travel time of the food through rot. In other words: The further away your trade partner, the more food will be lost in transit.
Brokered deals will have dramatically reduced rot. Either half or even none at all. Since only traders can broker...

Food rot is good. Hurting the food is the better option to make Lords think twice before trade.

   2. 48 hours delay for offers to become available for trading, but they are available for brokering immediately. This represents the time delay of moving food around first to the market place and then to the recipient vs. sending it from the one to the other directly via a broker.

I still think that 3 days is better. A Lord may follow her food supplies and act much time before this 3 days. And it will give the trader players more time since maybe you will need talk with the lords and answers takes some time.

   3. I'm thinking about some advantage for unrestricted offers, but haven't yet come up with something good. But I want to encourage people on that. The only idea I have this far is to make the black market simply a copy of the regular market with all restrictions lifted. If restricted traders aren't 100% safe, I believe more people wouldn't bother to restrict them.

Ok, but what is advantage for those who post unrestricted offers? The chance to arrest a enemy trader? And to me the black market must be something really criminal. Like broker a trade getting part of the payment for himself or something like that.

   4. We need automatic offers, on the old system of "if stockpile > x then put y bushels on the market for z gold" resp. "if stockpile < x then post an offer for y bushels for z gold". It needs a bit of work to integrate it with the new tax system and all, but it can work (bonds required could be taken from the tax collection, bonds gained would be added to the tax income).

A good addiction, but there must be something that allow multiple orders. I really don't see orders of 500 bushels, or 1000 bushels, helping. I don't know any region that reach this amount of food easily.

[fodder]

We need automatic offers, on the old system of "if stockpile > x then put y bushels on the market for z gold" resp. "if stockpile < x then post an offer for y bushels for z gold". It needs a bit of work to integrate it with the new tax system and all, but it can work (bonds required could be taken from the tax collection, bonds gained would be added to the tax income).

i don't know... if you are going to tie it back into the tax system again, maybe it'll make more sense for the whole thing (manual offers for lords/stewards) to be tied into the tax system.

[mykavykos]

i don't know... if you are going to tie it back into the tax system again, maybe it'll make more sense for the whole thing (manual offers for lords/stewards) to be tied into the tax system.

I agree.
When I made trades with my steward I finished the deal with my own bonds. In true I needed create bonds to make the deal and then I will need to request compensation from my liege.
If the whole system was based in tax, then the steward, or lord, will not need to have the gold, or bonds, to make the deal.
Only traders would have to have bonds to broker a trade.

[Indirik]

   
• Implement rot for food on the market - this should be done anyways because otherwise putting food on the market on a deal you don't expect anyone to accept is a way to save food from rotting. The amount of rot would depend on a "virtual time", representing travel time for food, which will NOT be added, i.e. trading remains instant, but we simulate the travel time of the food through rot. In other words: The further away your trade partner, the more food will be lost in transit.
  Brokered deals will have dramatically reduced rot. Either half or even none at all. Since only traders can broker...
• 48 hours delay for offers to become available for trading, but they are available for brokering immediately. This represents the time delay of moving food around first to the market place and then to the recipient vs. sending it from the one to the other directly via a broker.
• I'm thinking about some advantage for unrestricted offers, but haven't yet come up with something good. But I want to encourage people on that. The only idea I have this far is to make the black market simply a copy of the regular market with all restrictions lifted. If restricted traders aren't 100% safe, I believe more people wouldn't bother to restrict them.
• We need automatic offers, on the old system of "if stockpile > x then put y bushels on the market for z gold" resp. "if stockpile < x then post an offer for y bushels for z gold". It needs a bit of work to integrate it with the new tax system and all, but it can work (bonds required could be taken from the tax collection, bonds gained would be added to the tax income).

I like #1. Trades brokered by traders not being subject to rot at all. (Note: Once food offered for trade is subject to rot, don't forget to rot food if the deal is canceled by the lord, or if the trade time expires, as well as if the deal is accepted by a lord.)

I like #2. 48 hours seems like a decent time. Enough time for traders who are on the ball to see it and act, if they can. Not so much as to be deadly to a lord who really needs food *now*.

I like #4. I would suggest that the food be added to the market in small increments, perhaps in 50 or 100 bushel lots. These massive orders of 500+ bushels are just way too hard to fill. Also, perhaps all auto-orders could be Open orders?

#3... I don't think this will do anything. If I want the trade with only my realm, the fact that some dishonest trader *could* use the order anyway will not convince me to use open orders. After all, *any* trader can use the open offers, but only the bad guys will use the black market, and they stand a chance of getting caught if they do. *Some* chance to catch the thief is better than *no* chance to catch the thief.

Some additional ideas:

   
• Restrict the length of time for which a restricted order can be posted. Max length of 4 days for Realm Only, 7 days for Allies Only, and the full 14 days only for Open offers? This may conflict with the auto-orders, though: if the auto-order is restricted and gets canceled, the auto-system would just repost it next turn. So maybe if an auto-order expires, then it won't be reposted for another 4 or 7 days?
• We were talking about fees for accepting offers. How about we turn this around, and put up fees for posting offers? Make Open offers free to post, but implement fees for restricted offers. Allies Only could be a fee of a couple gold, say 2-5 gold per offer. Realm Only to be twice that, or 4-10 gold per offer. (Not sure what a good fee would be to give incentive for rural lords to post Open offers, but not make it extortionate if they don't. I think even a small fee would convince may rural lords to start posting less restrictive orders.) Rationale is that it takes time/money for the Marketplace to screen traders to meet the desired restrictions. For Open offers they just let anyone buy it. But for restricted offers they have to verify the identity of the trader.

[Indirik]

Doesn't reducing lord range to one region do exactly what you said they shouldn't? Penalise lords rather than reward traders.

Yes, it does. But in order to add advantages for traders, we do have to restrict some options for lords. The alternative is to just keep dumping advantages on traders, and pretty soon they will be able to just see all trade offers on the whole island. There is only so much we can add to one side before we have to start taking away from the other side. I would be happy to advocate more bonuses for traders if we can think of some.

[Vellos]

• We were talking about fees for accepting offers. How about we turn this around, and put up fees for posting offers? Make Open offers free to post, but implement fees for restricted offers. Allies Only could be a fee of a couple gold, say 2-5 gold per offer. Realm Only to be twice that, or 4-10 gold per offer. (Not sure what a good fee would be to give incentive for rural lords to post Open offers, but not make it extortionate if they don't. I think even a small fee would convince may rural lords to start posting less restrictive orders.) Rationale is that it takes time/money for the Marketplace to screen traders to meet the desired restrictions. For Open offers they just let anyone buy it. But for restricted offers they have to verify the identity of the trader.

This. Have fees for restricted offers. That's the easiest way to get unrestricted offers. Not huge fees, but fees. I would think 40-100 gold in revenue is a reasonable take for a small rural in a harvest period. Which makes me think that a fee of 4-10 gold for restricted offers is probably fine.

[Dante Silverfire]

I like #1. Trades brokered by traders not being subject to rot at all. (Note: Once food offered for trade is subject to rot, don't forget to rot food if the deal is canceled by the lord, or if the trade time expires, as well as if the deal is accepted by a lord.)

I like #2. 48 hours seems like a decent time. Enough time for traders who are on the ball to see it and act, if they can. Not so much as to be deadly to a lord who really needs food *now*.

I like #4. I would suggest that the food be added to the market in small increments, perhaps in 50 or 100 bushel lots. These massive orders of 500+ bushels are just way too hard to fill. Also, perhaps all auto-orders could be Open orders?

#3... I don't think this will do anything. If I want the trade with only my realm, the fact that some dishonest trader *could* use the order anyway will not convince me to use open orders. After all, *any* trader can use the open offers, but only the bad guys will use the black market, and they stand a chance of getting caught if they do. *Some* chance to catch the thief is better than *no* chance to catch the thief.

Some additional ideas:

   
• Restrict the length of time for which a restricted order can be posted. Max length of 4 days for Realm Only, 7 days for Allies Only, and the full 14 days only for Open offers? This may conflict with the auto-orders, though: if the auto-order is restricted and gets canceled, the auto-system would just repost it next turn. So maybe if an auto-order expires, then it won't be reposted for another 4 or 7 days?
• We were talking about fees for accepting offers. How about we turn this around, and put up fees for posting offers? Make Open offers free to post, but implement fees for restricted offers. Allies Only could be a fee of a couple gold, say 2-5 gold per offer. Realm Only to be twice that, or 4-10 gold per offer. (Not sure what a good fee would be to give incentive for rural lords to post Open offers, but not make it extortionate if they don't. I think even a small fee would convince may rural lords to start posting less restrictive orders.) Rationale is that it takes time/money for the Marketplace to screen traders to meet the desired restrictions. For Open offers they just let anyone buy it. But for restricted offers they have to verify the identity of the trader.

Personally I don't think we need more advantages to traders or disadvantages to lords beyond what Tom has suggested.

Sure, EC may have less trade offers than intended (or non-existant) but that just means that the political and military situation on EC is perhaps a lot more food stable than other continents. Maybe each realm is quite balance in the purchases that they need to make and can provide for themselves with only a few small exceptions.

All I know is that we can't make broad code changes that effect every island for problems that are only occuring on a single island, when those changes may create obvious other issues on the ones that are working. If it is a balance issue, then that can be addressed without code changes which may mess up the trading system. What I can see is that the food trading system on Atamara is working quite well. I have had multiple traders from multiple realms not only work with my realm, but seek to organize large trade brokerings across areas. One trader recently completed a buy offer a lord of my realm had posted for 700 bushels. (Not 7-100 bushels offers, but a single 700 bushel offer). Then a trader in my realm used this new amount of food to broker a trade to complete the 1000 bushel offer that I had on to purchase food for the past few days to a week.

This seems to be working to me, since my region alone has completed nearly 2000 bushels worth of offers in the past week to 10 days. I operate with the stigma of making very large bushel sets with a high(er) price so that traders who work hard to get food for my region, can be rewarded with a price increase for profitability. But if they simply are seeking small profits or a breakeven trade then I have less profitable 100 bushel offers. All of my offers are unrestricted, and personally I'd be quite happy if there was an option to buy/sell food to an enemy realm, as long as this was visible by the banker of both realms or something.

To me, this seems like a trading system that is working well. Perhaps the Dukes and lords of EC haven't gotten fully into it yet, or are brokering only deals in their realm. I don't know. But, I know that Atamara has a lot of trades going on, and it makes it interesting for me to watch as well getting all the purchase notifications from different people.

[Indirik]

I agree that we can't make sweeping changes based on one island. But we also can't let things stagnate everywhere because trade may be working right for one city on one island.

Unfortunately we don't have a good baseline. Dwilight got overloaded with food for so long that there were literally hundreds of thousands of bushels available and all reals were producing surpluses, EC has a lot of burned regions, FEI has broken trade distances, and AT has two very large allied blocks. No island is "typical" or has a varied enough state to really be called average.