Reworking Trade

[Dante Silverfire]

I agree that we can't make sweeping changes based on one island. But we also can't let things stagnate everywhere because trade may be working right for one city on one island.

Unfortunately we don't have a good baseline. Dwilight got overloaded with food for so long that there were literally hundreds of thousands of bushels available and all reals were producing surpluses, EC has a lot of burned regions, FEI has broken trade distances, and AT has two very large allied blocks. No island is "typical" or has a varied enough state to really be called average.

You're right of course. I understand as well that my city is no sure indicator, and I'm a bit biased because my city is now fed, when it used to be starving, solely due to the new trading system allowing me to purchase food easier from across the continent through less traders.

Any change, we'll adjust to, but I also just dislike using the "stick" to change things. Any situation where traders are "necessary" to play the game, I won't support. If you make a system where warriors are "necessary" that makes a lot more sense in a "Battle"-master, than traders. While it is a class that some really enjoy, forcing at least one trader per realm I don't feel is productive with our current player base. If we had double the players, then sure, but not now.

[Indirik]

Yes, we don't want to make traders required. I'm just tossing lots of ideas against the wall, and seeing which ones stick. Sometimes that means that I propose things that don't necessarily work. But I trust Tom to not take those and put them in the game. :)

[fodder]

I agree.
When I made trades with my steward I finished the deal with my own bonds. In true I needed create bonds to make the deal and then I will need to request compensation from my liege.
If the whole system was based in tax, then the steward, or lord, will not need to have the gold, or bonds, to make the deal.
Only traders would have to have bonds to broker a trade.

i don't think steward paying out of own pocket is that big an issue. i mean.. stewards could also be making a bit on the side if they are doing the selling. they should ask for a bigger estate (higher income) to cover trades if they are in buying regions. only thing is possibly a steward cut or something off the lord's cut if their estate is maxed and still not enough (unlikely)

and.. no.. traders don't need bonds, since they are not allowed to make a loss anyway. so they can't use up bonds when brokering.

the problem with going tax was that you could end up with negative income for the region.. for poor regions.... and kill off a load of buildings, etc... in return for "free" food. (and no income)

so i think if you are going back to the tax route, some sort of region coffers that gets filled from the lord's tax and / or manually paid in by the lord would be needed. no funds in the coffer, no trade.
----
it might also be useful to allow a lord/steward to put up offers anywhere. but obviously still cannot fulfil an offer unless at a market.

[egamma]

FEI has broken trade distances

And the Colonies. We had a character switch class (voluntarily) because the distance of 108 miles was too far to trade.

[Tom]

Clarification: By "from tax" I don't mean that a debt is possible. What I do mean is that money in the tax coffers could be spent. It's a bit tricky to explain, but really easy to grasp once you see it.

[Darksun]

Yes, we don't want to make traders required.

Then give the "banker" the abilities of a trader by default? The abilities would stack if the banker was also a trader? This way every realm is assured the basic abilities of at least one trader.

Maybe this is unbalanced with the current level of knowledge/reports that the banker has, but provides a potential solution that would relieve the trader problem. Also makes the banker a prime target for assassins or enemy realms in general.

[Indirik]

That's an interesting idea.

[Foundation]

So... essentially the Banker has one extra subclass - Trader?  :-/

[Indirik]

At least partially, I suppose. They don't need all trader abilities, just allow them to broker trade deals. Solves the "Our realm doesn't have a trader" complaint. Makes bankers very useful, and gives them a true purpose in every realm.

[Foundation]

At least partially, I suppose. They don't need all trader abilities, just allow them to broker trade deals. Solves the "Our realm doesn't have a trader" complaint. Makes bankers very useful, and gives them a true purpose in every realm.

Seems to me it's saying "we don't really have anything high level for you to do, just go be a common trader".  All the other council members have very specific privileges that only they can do well. :-\

[Darksun]

The banker is the only person with a realm wide view of food at his disposal in real time. That would make him a pretty important trader - not just a "common" one. Traders make trades to make themselves rich. A banker makes trades because he has a sworn duty to the council to do so.

Just my thought.

[Dante Silverfire]

Well what is being stated is that the banker currently doesn't really have anything that they really are needed in order to get done.

Generals, Judges, and Rulers all have very specific things they are useful for, while Bankers don't at this time. I know its been stated over and over again that new ideas are being thought up.

[Tom]

Then give the "banker" the abilities of a trader by default?

No.

[Vellos]

No.

Really?

It seemed like a good idea to me– solve the weak banker problem, solve the "must have trader" problem, and be fairly simple...

Though I guess that we would have a rash of priest bankers then, wouldn't we? Hm.

[egamma]

There's nothing stopping a banker from becoming a trader--except for being a priest or hero. But if that's the case, then he's probably not interested in food, right?

Bankers are the head of the Trader caste, just as Generals are the head of the courtier/hero/warriors, Ruler in charge of diplomats, Judge for courtiers.