Reworking Trade

[Tom]

There's nothing stopping a banker from becoming a trader--except for being a priest or hero.

Exactly. If the banker wants to be a trader, he can. No need to give it to him for free or force it.

[mykavykos]

Only to prove what I'm saying about the system nor working for traders.

"Message sent to everyone in message group "Lords " (24 recipients)
Why would the difference be essential? When our lords can either put their offers in the cities or accept buy offers from the dukes? That would benefit our traders, but there isn't any incentive on both rural lords and dukes. If dukes are too busy, their stewards can act as traders and travel around as well."

In other words "we will not give any space to traders here"

This was the Prime Minister afters saying that all offers must be created at its lowest price to keep the gold to "bigger projects".

The difference mentioned would create a "waste" of 120 gold in the total amount produced in the entire realm. But still they think that is too much.

For this reason I think that the trader must have a way to have profit regardless of the prices set by the lords.

[Dante Silverfire]

Only to prove what I'm saying about the system nor working for traders.

"Message sent to everyone in message group "Lords " (24 recipients)
Why would the difference be essential? When our lords can either put their offers in the cities or accept buy offers from the dukes? That would benefit our traders, but there isn't any incentive on both rural lords and dukes. If dukes are too busy, their stewards can act as traders and travel around as well."

In other words "we will not give any space to traders here"

This was the Prime Minister afters saying that all offers must be created at its lowest price to keep the gold to "bigger projects".

The difference mentioned would create a "waste" of 120 gold in the total amount produced in the entire realm. But still they think that is too much.

For this reason I think that the trader must have a way to have profit regardless of the prices set by the lords.

That has nothing to do with the system not working for traders. That has to do with your characters being power played by the other characters in your realm. That's a play by the Dukes to force food prices down. Start an outcry against the government, start a revolt, call for a rebellion. Any of these things are legitimate responses to a legitimate action by a realm government.

[mykavykos]

No.

The system don't work.

If a trader can't make a profit he can't trade. If he can't trade he do nothing more than any other carreers do.
I really don't care for the prices, but If the game developers will allow traders in the game, so they must do something that allow the players to use the class.
Any class must be playable regardless of the will of the other players.

If a realm say that is forbiden to preach, and I as a priest start to spread the word of my gods, I will probably be arrested and banned, but I CAN preach.

As a trader I CAN'T trade anything if the lords don't agree. The class is useless.

[Dante Silverfire]

No.

The system don't work.

If a trader can't make a profit he can't trade. If he can't trade he do nothing more than any other carreers do.
I really don't care for the prices, but If the game developers will allow traders in the game, so they must do something that allow the players to use the class.
Any class must be playable regardless of the will of the other players.

If a realm say that is forbiden to preach, and I as a priest start to spread the word of my gods, I will probably be arrested and banned, but I CAN preach.

As a trader I CAN'T trade anything if the lords don't agree. The class is useless.

You can still trade as well if you only trade between someone selling 10 gold/100 and buying at 10gold/100. That is STILL trading.

If you don't like it, you can rebel, or go to another realm. Nothing is stopping you. Just because your realm is making a ducal power play doesn't mean it happens everywhere.

Anything that uses only a single realm as an example cannot be proof that a system isn't working.

Edit: Here's an example of why this argument doesn't work: This could have happened just as easily under the old system. If every region set their regions to only sell food at 99 gold per 100 bushels and to only buy food at 1 gold/100 bushels, then trading isn't possible either. At least not in any way a trader wants to trade. Thus, the system hasn't change at all in terms of a coordinated government stopping traders from gaining profit. There is nothing wrong with that from an OOC perspective, as it is a legitimate IC powerplay.

[mykavykos]

No
It seems that you don't know the new system.

To broker a deal a trader MUST make profit. The system will not allow you to do otherwise.
So if there are buy and sell offers of 10 gold, only lords will be able to close the deal. A trader will need a buy offer of at least 15 gold to broker the deal.

The system may work for Lords, it don't work for traders. And is this I'm talking about.
In the actual system traders are a useless class unless people chose to make it useful.

The class must be useful even if none of the players want it. It may be not available, as priests in a realm without religion, but, once they are available, the player must be able to use it.

Many Ideas here were based in the good will of the players and I sincerely don't think that we may count with this.


About the old System
I, as a trader, could buy food from whenever I want and sell tho whoever I want using my caravans. Now I cant do such a thing.

[Dante Silverfire]

No
It seems that you don't know the new system.

To broker a deal a trader MUST make profit. The system will not allow you to do otherwise.
So if there are buy and sell offers of 10 gold, only lords will be able to close the deal. A trader will need a buy offer of at least 15 gold to broker the deal.

The system may work for Lords, it don't work for traders. And is this I'm talking about.
In the actual system traders are a useless class unless people chose to make it useful.

The class must be useful even if none of the players want it. It may be not available, as priests in a realm without religion, but, once they are available, the player must be able to use it.

Many Ideas here were based in the good will of the players and I sincerely don't think that we may count with this.


About the old System
I, as a trader, could buy food from whenever I want and sell tho whoever I want using my caravans. Now I cant do such a thing.

Well I doubt it must be at least 15 gold. If they are selling for 10 gold and buying for 11 gold, you make a profit and would likely be allowed to trade.

And if you must make a profit (and can't just trade for even) then the system is definitely not broken, because I've seen plenty of trades accomplished by traders over the past weeks. While this does not prove that the system is working perfectly, it does show that it isn't completely broken.

You however stated that a trader must make a profit in order to have any reason to trade. Therefore, my statement still stands that you could be prevented from doing such under the old system. If no one bought food for more than X gold, and no one sold food for less than Y gold and Y was greater than X, you'd always lose on trades, and by your logic trading would be impossible.

Traders may not be the most useful class, but we also have a useless government position (Banker), it doesn't mean they aren't trying to make improvements when they can. What is good about this system is that it allows traders to truly broker deals across large distances without having to travel for 2 weeks just to make a single trade. Now you can make 10 trades in a week if you make the right contacts and ask those lords to post the right prices.

It sounds as if you're only trading within your realm.

Also, can you state what realm and on what continent your on? Without context its hard to get an idea for what your arguing for.

[mykavykos]

I'm in Sirion, EC.

In the old system I could, with a looooong journey search for another realms to trade the food I bought. I could buy food for 100 gold and give it to a starving region of my realm for almost nothing. Now I can't. The only thing I can do is sit and wait until a noble with love in his heart decide that I can play my class.

And I admit that I was wrong. A difference of 1 gold is possible.
The banker is not useless. Is their job organize and distribute the food.
As well as is the job of the general coordinate the armies.
Council position are, for default, dependent from players decision. Players have the right to do whatever they want, as stated in the IR.

A class is not the same thing. Think about you as a warrior unable to fight ANYTHING, including monsters. Nothing. Zero. Unless other players agree that they will fight. Where is the fun?

For this reason I'm saying that the system is broken for traders. To the lords I think that it is good. Could be better, but its good. For trader it simply don't work because depend completely upon people, that in the majority, don't care for traders.

[Dante Silverfire]

I'm in Sirion, EC.

In the old system I could, with a looooong journey search for another realms to trade the food I bought. I could buy food for 100 gold and give it to a starving region of my realm for almost nothing. Now I can't. The only thing I can do is sit and wait until a noble with love in his heart decide that I can play my class.

And I admit that I was wrong. A difference of 1 gold is possible.
The banker is not useless. Is their job organize and distribute the food.
As well as is the job of the general coordinate the armies.
Council position are, for default, dependent from players decision. Players have the right to do whatever they want, as stated in the IR.

A class is not the same thing. Think about you as a warrior unable to fight ANYTHING, including monsters. Nothing. Zero. Unless other players agree that they will fight. Where is the fun?

For this reason I'm saying that the system is broken for traders. To the lords I think that it is good. Could be better, but its good. For trader it simply don't work because depend completely upon people, that in the majority, don't care for traders.

From what I can tell this is just a problem of EC not needing as much trade, not a function of the system itself. The system as far as anyone I've talked to on Atamara is working great for both traders and lords. Traders are consistently cashing in 5-10 gold per 100 bushels.

[mykavykos]

Because people want this...

Well. I give up. ^_^

My point is that you mus be able to play your class without the need of cooperate, or beg, to other players.
The cooperation must be something that IMPROVE the experience. Nothing more.

[Indirik]

As far as I can see, if traders are brokering trades, it's because lords/stewards are lazy. I have yet to see a trade brokered in any of the regions I have a character in. This includes my lord characters on Dwilight and FEI, my steward on EC, and my knights on AT and BT. (All of these are city regions.) I have seen lords sell me food. I have bought food from other regions. But I don't think that any trader has ever brokered any of my trade deals.

It would be great if AT were working as designed. The question then would be why is it working on AT, and not the other islands? Is the food balance right on AT, and really wacky on other islands? Or is your character in Coria in just the right place to take advantage of it?

Personally, I think we really need more feedback from other people on AT. I have heard from at least one duke on AT that they are almost out of food, no one is selling them food, and there are no Sell offers available.

[Dante Silverfire]

As far as I can see, if traders are brokering trades, it's because lords/stewards are lazy. I have yet to see a trade brokered in any of the regions I have a character in. This includes my lord characters on Dwilight and FEI, my steward on EC, and my knights on AT and BT. (All of these are city regions.) I have seen lords sell me food. I have bought food from other regions. But I don't think that any trader has ever brokered any of my trade deals.

It would be great if AT were working as designed. The question then would be why is it working on AT, and not the other islands? Is the food balance right on AT, and really wacky on other islands? Or is your character in Coria in just the right place to take advantage of it?

Personally, I think we really need more feedback from other people on AT. I have heard from at least one duke on AT that they are almost out of food, no one is selling them food, and there are no Sell offers available.

1. I believe a lot of lords are inherently lazy in this game. At least when it comes to food related things.
2. Perhaps Coria is uniquely positioned to take advantage of it since we're right in the middle of the continent, but Atamara is has a very broad spectrum of food realms. We have realms that heavily import food such as Coria, as well as realms that heavily export food such as Strombran and Eston.
3. Coria has two traders (although one just paused) and they are required to get food because all of the food offers which I'm buying food from are from over 500-1000 miles away. In other words, they are on the far end of the continent. Some of them are closer, but still outside of the range of my city.

What I think the problem is that the food is TOO balanced on EC perhaps. If realms are neither heavily importing or heavily exporting then they have no need to put a lot of time into trade. They can trade once every week or so outside of the realm to even things out and be fine, while having lords trade amongst themselves in realm.

However, if someone has to heavily export/import on the range of over 500 bushels or more every week then they have a lot of encouragement to make contacts in foreign realms and use traders to gather food from very far away.

It wasn't long ago that Coria was importing up to 750 bushels every week just to feed its city, and that was up to 1000 if possible before the size of city changes and before the city went into starvation.

[mykavykos]

Anyone can tell me how this was possible?

"Deal brokered successfully, you have made a profit of 0 gold."

I just brokered a deal with 0 profit. Some days ago I tried the same thing and It was not possible.
Tom declared many time that this will not be allowed to control possible exploits.
What changed?

[Dante Silverfire]

Anyone can tell me how this was possible?

"Deal brokered successfully, you have made a profit of 0 gold."

I just brokered a deal with 0 profit. Some days ago I tried the same thing and It was not possible.
Tom declared many time that this will not be allowed to control possible exploits.
What changed?

I think the point was that you can't trade for a loss. But that even was possible. Don't quote me on that though. But it was my actual thought behind it.

[mykavykos]

No Dante,

Tom expressly said that the trader will MUST make a profit.
Or something changed or there is a bug. ^_^