The Zuma

[Norrel]

Thought experiment time!

A realm appears to act capriciously, while the head of state either doesn't see the need to communicate its intentions, or does so sparingly. Into this information vacuum flows all sorts of craziness. Why is the head of state or the realm to blame? Why is there some special burden that falls upon them as opposed to any other realm that behaves in the same way?

Because they're invincible gods who can never be pressured or coerced.

[Scarlett]

While I find it kind of pathetic you had a tantrum and deleted your character, its what you should have done, just I see it as pathetic when doing it in a rage-quit manner (without the rage at players) then a I have thought about this for a bit and decided I should delete my character. If you don't like the Zuma, which has been there for awhile and has always been said to be there for a reason/something to play with not simply ignore, then you should just leave the island as that is part of Dwilight, like you did. What you shouldn't do is go, I don't like this so we shouldn't have it in the game. (IMO anyways)

I have never liked the Zuma (and said so) but even I will admit that their involvement always had a very obvious level of restraint in the past. We even had some good RP with them a couple times. Various people would occasionally try to solicit them for something but it was always a bust or pretty close to one.

As for my tantrum, all I can say is that when an army composed of players arrived and took everything I had, I had a great time, even though several of them were apparently cheaters. The ones who weren't made it fun. That was a big loss. Not being able to establish Saffalore is not a big loss because neither I nor Quintus had any particular ambition to do so. The only thing I'm pissed about is that Dwilight was finally starting to be fun after being both the most boring and the least seriously medieval continent I'd ever seen, and that got halted because one noble half a world away persuaded them to attack based on who knows what. I can guess that Kas' letters probably had something to do with it, but this gets into what Vellos said: none of the nearby nobles knew what was going on. If the Zuma had been a human realm there would've been letters exchanged, like, dear sir, we understand your realm is dumb and we are thinking of invading, or at the very least, dear sir, we understand the realm that used to be here is dumb, is your new realm also dumb.

By the way, one of Quintus' acts before he surrendered the Chateau was to sell some of his food stores to the Zuma. Quintus hates the Zuma but even he's pragmatic enough to know when he might need favors. I guess nobody noticed.

[Zuma GM]

You're still talking as if this was something the Zuma have done against the realm of Terran. As has been said already, this march on Chesney was started before the duchy broke away to form a new realm, so was not an attack against anyone's capital. The Zuma also were careful to avoid any actions in any of the regions they went through to get to the city. It is a very pointed attack with a purpose, it is not an invasion and it was never about Terran.

[Scarlett]

So:

- They left to attack Chesney before Terran split
- Their attack is not about either Terran or Saffalore (making the previous point irrelevant?)
- Nobody in Terran or Saffalore knows what is going on or why
- None of the realms bordering Terran or Saffalore know what is going on or why
- One person in a realm on the other side of the world knows what is going on and why

I don't doubt that there is some legit reason that you did this, but as has already been pointed out, it doesn't seem to involve any players who are in that part of the world. I know Allison wants to set up shop there and I know Aurvandil wants to re-establish Firenze there. If I wanted to set up shop in some other part of Dwilight I'd have to convince a bunch of other players to help me out. I couldn't just forward some letters to the God of Not-Invasion Invasions.

In other words: I don't think you're arbitrary or capricious. I think you're doing exactly what you're there to do, and that nobody had any chance to even stop you or even be aware that you were coming. As of yesterday, Saffalore still had no idea what was going on.

I've got nothing more to say here. You did what you did and this is the result. 

[Zuma GM]

So:

- They left to attack Chesney before Terran split
- Their attack is not about either Terran or Saffalore (making the previous point irrelevant?)
- Nobody in Terran or Saffalore knows what is going on or why
- None of the realms bordering Terran or Saffalore know what is going on or why
- One person in a realm on the other side of the world knows what is going on and why

Taking these point in order.
- correct
- it is relevant because others have been ranting that it's picking on a realm and deliberately on their capital. Not the case as that was not the situation at the time.
- Incorrect. Some knew before the Zuma left their own lands, others in regions bordering the city had RPs sent out before the first battle took place.
- Incorrect.
- Correct but you missed out that there are also a number of people very close to the location itself that are also aware.

Again I would suggest that stating things as fact when you don't actually know the facts is not the best way to do things, especially on the forums where others who are not involved in the situations themselves might actually believe you and be mislead into incorrect conclusions about the way of the world.

[Scarlett]

it is relevant because others have been ranting that it's picking on a realm and deliberately on their capital.

That did not ever seem to be the case and you wouldn't do anything purely to 'pick on' a bunch of players. That's a different sort of complaint and not one I'd make.

Again I would suggest that stating things as fact when you don't actually know the facts is not the best way to do things

As Duke of the Chateau and a likely candidate to rule Saffalore I'd been dealing with everybody who had a stake in Chesney, including some people who didn't yet but wanted one. With me were Terran's last Chief Magistrate (Daemon), Chesney's Duke and the current ruler of Saffalore, and all of the nobles from that Duchy. I went out of my way to figure out which way the wind was blowing and if some realm I'd missed had landed in Chesney and sacked the place, I'd say oh well, guess I left out one important name on my 'Hi how are you' greeting card list.

Asylon already said that they know what the Zuma are doing in the North but not in Chesney.

Whether or not you conspired with Chesney's next door neighbor isn't relevant because you didn't play the game the way everyone else does. There was no interaction. If another realm had done what you did, lots of people would have heard about it because you can't keep an invasion force secret for very long.

Whatever the facts are, the way of the world here is that you steamrolled a group of players who had no knowledge of what you were doing and no ability to stop you. Even if all of Barca or all of Aurvandil supported it, I'd never return to Dwilight for that reason alone. I love playing the game and losing because it doesn't happen much. I'm pretty good at this stuff and this was the first conflict in my entire time on BM where I'd ever had to RP losing something significant when Aurvandil showed up. Quintus surrendering to Allomere was tons of fun and would've been more fun if Aurvandil had had more time and wasn't dealing with the loss of a chunk of their characters.

I don't love losing without even playing the game because what that transmits to me about the way of the world is that I'm wasting my time. That it doesn't matter what I do because somebody else realized that convincing one GM of something is a heck of a lot easier than convincing a lot of characters, which is what I spend my time doing.

The distinction is critical because the idea that you are some GM hammer for players you or somebody doesn't like is even more absurd. I know you're doing what you're doing for a reason. My point is that that's even more dangerous, because you're not doing it the way the rest of us have to do it.

[Zuma GM]

Whether or not you conspired with Chesney's next door neighbor isn't relevant because you didn't play the game the way everyone else does. There was no interaction. If another realm had done what you did, lots of people would have heard about it because you can't keep an invasion force secret for very long.

No one was conspired with. It really sounds like you're completely over complicating what's actually going on. Maybe if you'd hung around and tried to find out in game you'd have realised this and understood that it's not an invasion force, as has already been stated before.

Whatever the facts are, the way of the world here is that you steamrolled a group of players who had no knowledge of what you were doing and no ability to stop you. Even if all of Barca or all of Aurvandil supported it, I'd never return to Dwilight for that reason alone. I love playing the game and losing because it doesn't happen much. I'm pretty good at this stuff and this was the first conflict in my entire time on BM where I'd ever had to RP losing something significant when Aurvandil showed up. Quintus surrendering to Allomere was tons of fun and would've been more fun if Aurvandil had had more time and wasn't dealing with the loss of a chunk of their characters.

I don't love losing without even playing the game because what that transmits to me about the way of the world is that I'm wasting my time. That it doesn't matter what I do because somebody else realized that convincing one GM of something is a heck of a lot easier than convincing a lot of characters, which is what I spend my time doing.

The distinction is critical because the idea that you are some GM hammer for players you or somebody doesn't like is even more absurd. I know you're doing what you're doing for a reason. My point is that that's even more dangerous, because you're not doing it the way the rest of us have to do it.

If you look at what is actually happening then you would also see that the Zuma don't do other things the way other players have to. We've said we are going to destroy the city. Is every Daimon in the city looting every turn? Talk with the people that have had the Zuma visit them in the past. A lot of opportunity is given for the players to actually do something about the situations but some, rather than invest any time in the game to try to solve their problems instead choose to rant about the unfairness of it all either OOC or on the forums or both. The Zuma is not some solid block that just ploughs on ignoring the interactions of others. We've marched into cities before, been spoken with and marched straight out again. Yes it might be unexpected that we've turned up but it is very simple, in game, to find out whatever the reasons are and then to try to deal with them. Invest the energy into creativeness in game rather than anger outside of it and you'll get a much better experience.
In the past Barca was threatened with complete destruction. They were given multiple options to get out of this (the "tons" of unique items that were one demand could actually be counted on one hand for those unaware of facts). deadlines were extended and in the end another solution was RPd to end the conflict. That was for realm destruction, which the current situation is nowhere near.
Again, I really do suggest people at least try to do things in game before ranting about the unfairness of it all elsewhere, much more fun for everyone then.

[Scarlett]

In the past Barca was threatened with complete destruction. They were given multiple options to get out of this (the "tons" of unique items that were one demand could actually be counted on one hand for those unaware of facts). deadlines were extended

How very gracious of you to extend their deadline of destruction.

you would also see that the Zuma don't do other things the way other players have to

Precisely the problem and why I prefer to play with people who are playing the same game I'm playing.

[Kwanstein]

hahahaha wow. Okay.

You're acting like you're speaking for everyone when you say the Zuma's good. Protip: I don't have any census data and neither do you. If you polled Dwilight and everyone said that they loved the Zuma and it really was an insane vocal minority that's been spouting off anti-Zuma rhetoric, I'd shut up. Until then, leave the what-ifs at the door.

Yeah, it's true. If I go to an art gallery and instead of paintings I get kicked in the nuts, you can't tell me that I should keep coming back because of his artistic integrity. I'm going to leave and never come back and complain publicly about how duplicitous and idiotic this art museum is. Being a DM and punishing your players for wanting something you're not providing is called being a bad DM. If you don't want to cater to other people, play by yourself.

If you're seriously saying that all of Dwilight exists so that the Zuma GM can enjoy himself you need to get your head checked.

Everything you say is a fallacy, I don't see why you bother with this.

[dustole]

The unique item thing is from when they had a human ambasador. He wanted lots cause he was looking for something in particular and didnt want to say what it was. thats my understanding.

[Penchant]

Another thing I would like to state, the Zuma isn't playing intriguemaster. You asked random people, "Whats going on?" but have you sent a letter asking Haktoo that or anything? I doubt it. You also say that no one just does stuff without telling people and they always give a bunch of messages about it, but Asylon declared war and has yet to say why other than "a matter of honor".

[Scarlett]

but Asylon declared war and has yet to say why other than "a matter of honor".

Not at all. I was talking to a couple people in Asylon. They're also more Phantaria's problem than Saffalore's.

You asked random people, "Whats going on?" but have you sent a letter asking Haktoo that or anything? I

Shoot, you mean I was supposed to figure out who the key players were rather than randomly clicking names? Ah, well. Next time.

I did not think to write Haktoo a note to check in with her.

I realize I could have sent her a groveling letter after Chesney was attacked, but I don't have any interest in playing that game because every time you deal with the Zuma, as Perth pointed out, it's either grovel or lose, to say nothing of the fact that I enjoy RP that is low-fantasy and medieval as it says on the front page. The Zuma aren't medieval and they aren't even especially interesting. They don't fit into a medieval theme and even though I've had some interesting exchanges with them in the past, they have never added any value to my experience even when they've been on my side. There is very little characterization because they're nonhuman and that's hard to do, and even dealing with them at all requires a very 21st century approach to alien beings. Medieval nobles could barely get along with people from the same culture, much less a foreign culture, much less a foreign species led by demons. It's a bad idea that is poorly executed to boot.

If you wanted to introduce a GM element to mix things up and add a wildcard, I'd do something like mongols or barbary pirates. Sufficiently different to have a new mechanic but still people who want things people want and make deals like people do. In the old game Hundred Years War, the Pope served this function: he was 'off board' in that the map was just France and England with pieces of Spain and the HRE, but he was a wildcard with different mechanics than everybody else. It was also a role filled by a player on a rotating basis (when the Pope died, a new one would step in). It worked very well because while the Pope had certain advantages you didn't (like bulls and excommunications) he had disadvantages as well - like limited land and resources and not a lot of soldiers.

[Anaris]

Shoot, you mean I was supposed to figure out who the key players were rather than randomly clicking names? Ah, well. Next time.

I did not think to write Haktoo a note to check in with her.

You mean you couldn't have figured out that the ruler of the Zuma might know something about what the Zuma were doing?

Scarlett, I'm sorry, but I really don't think the Zuma are the ones doing it wrong here.

[Glaumring the Fox]

And here I was disappointed that the Zuma weren't doing enough! ;)

[Indirik]

I think they should burn down eveything within 750 miles of their capital.