Aurvandil's War Machine

[Creed]

But here is the difference, Aurvandil is sending everything IC through the Battlemaster Message System (or I assume so since they are still alive) thus it is not planning anything OOC its all Ingame.

The only difference is they happen to be following orders whereas some other realms have great difficulty in getting their military units to move.

How can you justify claning as fair play it is not. While you can argue all you want that while in game they do not excluded players from their realm but the fact they are a clan is exclusive. No matter what they do they are going to play their characters for the benefit of their clan.  For example lets say when nobles have to vote for their king clan members are going to be more likely to vote for a person inside their clan then just some random noble that joined their realm. I mean I know I am more likely to vote for my friend then I am for a random person even though I try to take my personal feeling out of the equation.

We all know that OOC information we get will  inevitably  be used in game. There is no one here that can say different. I mean if I said I was planning to over throw blank king and I had the support of enough nobles to do so. Who ever  character that is going to look a lot harder on finding the traitors in game then if I said nothing on the forum.   

[vonGenf]

The other big problem with a clan is not exactly how well they coordinate, but rather how consistently they move together.

If you've got 20-30 people who can all be counted on to move no more than an hour before the turn, every turn, that will more or less guarantee you can win a war against any single realm in BattleMaster.  Heck, even just that many people who can be counted on to move to the right region every turn could probably do that for you.

Most realms can't manage that these days by pulling from the general BattleMaster population.

So basically if a group of friends play together but follow the IR and remains inclusive, then that is all right.

However, if a group of friends asks their friends to log in at a certain time by OOG means, then it's not legit.

It seems to me the IR are truly well written from that point of view....

[Creed]

Aurvandil win in the civil war with Madina was pretty much won because  Aurvandil  has a clan in it and Madina does not.  The whole claned moved to Aurvandil  regions and took the noble count way over what most realms have. Aurvandil has double the amount of nobles as any other realm. If there was not a clan this would not have happened. This makes the game unfair for the rest of the realms. They have no chance of gaining this many nobles especially on dwilight where it is one character per account and that is a lot of realm to chose from.   

[Indirik]

However, if a group of friends asks their friends to log in at a certain time by OOG means, then it's not legit.

Any time you ask someone to log in at a specific time (one hour before turn, 3PM GMT, etc.) it is a violation of the IRs, regardless of the communications channel used.

[vonGenf]

Any time you ask someone to log in at a specific time (one hour before turn, 3PM GMT, etc.) it is a violation of the IRs, regardless of the communications channel used.

Well, yes, but that's true clan or no clan, and the Titans can then easily find proof and lightning bolt the culprit.

Anyway, my point was that the IR can be taken as the line in the sand that separates an illegitimate clan from a legit group of friends. Friends who play the game together, use the in-game messaging system, are inclusive of other players and respect the IR are in the clear. Or do you think there are extra rules that they should submit to?

[vonGenf]

Aurvandil has double the amount of nobles as any other realm. If there was not a clan this would not have happened.

Over the past month, Aurvandil has gained 12 nobles while Madina has lost 11 nobles. Are these mostly people who left Madina for Aurvandil or new players coming in Aurvandil?

(I don't know the answer, I'm really asking. I know some people have switched realms.)

[Indirik]

Well, yes, but that's true clan or no clan, and the Titans can then easily find proof and lightning bolt the culprit.

If it is done IG, and if someone reports it, then yes, the Titans can find it. If no one reports it, then it will never be found. So far as I know, the Titans do not engage in fishing expeditions for IR violations.

Or do you think there are extra rules that they should submit to?

Everyone is subject to the same, simple rules. No exceptions.

[Ramiel]

How can you justify claning as fair play it is not. While you can argue all you want that while in game they do not excluded players from their realm but the fact they are a clan is exclusive. No matter what they do they are going to play their characters for the benefit of their clan. 

Because I am a very good Devil's Advocate when I want to be. Lets just take your two different statements:

For example lets say when nobles have to vote for their king clan members are going to be more likely to vote for a person inside their clan then just some random noble that joined their realm. I mean I know I am more likely to vote for my friend then I am for a random person even though I try to take my personal feeling out of the equation.

So you want to force people to vote for someone they do not know, for that random noble that joined their realm rather than someone they have already seen in action for a length of time and who, in all fairness, deserves it more (in their eyes) than the random noble?
Given the choice of someone who I had no idea about; or the person who I had been fighting alongside, who continually supported my actions and helped me... I know I would pick that person over the random person as well.
It's simple really, in Battlemaster characters makes relationships exactly for the point of having those other characters be in a position able to support them when the time arose. By your logic, I myself am in violation every time I voted for a Judge or chose a Marshal who happened to be friends with my character. And I am very sure that nearly every other character would be in violation too. It doesnt just make sense, it makes perfect sense. No one back then (same as right now) would be willing to vote a completely unknown person into a position of power over them, they would instead vote for one of their friends. Thats a fact of Real Life.

We all know that OOC information we get will  inevitably  be used in game. There is no one here that can say different. I mean if I said I was planning to over throw blank king and I had the support of enough nobles to do so. Who ever  character that is going to look a lot harder on finding the traitors in game then if I said nothing on the forum.

Yes that is true, and it annoys the hell out of me as a player and a roleplayer. And yet I have been told quite eloquently to just 'deal with it and shut up already' when I mentioned OOC being used. This is why anything I say on IRC is mostly crap talking out my arse, why? Because if that player then uses that OOC knowledge ingame, he gains no advantage and looks very foolish and looks like a liar. Its also why I, and other roleplayers, are being forced to limit our roleplays and what we "think" in them because there are people out there who will take it and use it, even if its clear that it shouldnt be used. Unfortunately it appears to be a fact of Battlemaster.

And now on to your other post:

Aurvandil win in the civil war with Madina was pretty much won because  Aurvandil  has a clan in it and Madina does not.  The whole claned moved to Aurvandil  regions and took the noble count way over what most realms have. Aurvandil has double the amount of nobles as any other realm. If there was not a clan this would not have happened. This makes the game unfair for the rest of the realms. They have no chance of gaining this many nobles especially on dwilight where it is one character per account and that is a lot of realm to chose from.

And? By that standard if I then recruited say 5 friends and they all chose to join Pian en Luries it would be unfair and we would be clanning. Sorry but unless you want to get Tom to start dictating to us exactly where we may have characters in what realms, then you will just have to deal with it and try to make your realm look more nice. Heck if I was going to make a new character when the civil war started, I would have chosen Aurvandil, it looks like a nice realm to play in from what I have seen of it, I like their government type and I can already see a character and his backstory for joining that realm. Then I look at Madina... sorry but I hear its worse that the Luria's for backstabbing and politicing. Do not like their government system either. I have a character in mind though - wouldnt like to play it however. And it certainly is not as fleshed out as the one I had in mind for Aurvandil. Then I look at the Moot realms, interesting but mostly seems peaceful and inactive, heck D'hara just looks boring with its fight for food. Look at the SA realms, check out SA itself, now I can see a good character for it, but SA is already developed and the realms seem quite stable and old save for that new one. Doesnt feel like I will have much to do in it, or chance to advance...maybe. Lurias/Fissoa... already experienced, could do it again - already have a completely different character in mind for it.

So then, out of those choices I would rank them thus for appeal-ability:
Lurias/Fissoa
Aurvandil
SA
Moot
Madina
D'hara

Now I want to try something new so drop Lurias/Fissoa... oh look Aurvandil.

Just because you think its obviously a clan because no one could possibly want to be there, doesnt make you right. If it was not for the fact that your war was now coming to an end, I would most likely have my next toon in Aurvandil.

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Any time you ask someone to log in at a specific time (one hour before turn, 3PM GMT, etc.) it is a violation of the IRs, regardless of the communications channel used.

Agreed, what if however they were all simply logging in at that time because thats the timezone they were in/all got home etc etc etc etc?

[Anaris]

So basically if a group of friends play together but follow the IR and remains inclusive, then that is all right.

However, if a group of friends asks their friends to log in at a certain time by OOG means, then it's not legit.

It seems to me the IR are truly well written from that point of view....

There may not ever have been a specific request, instruction, or even suggestion to log in at a certain time. It may simply be that they know that gives them an advantage, so they all tacitly agree to do so.

And even if there was some kind of explicit coordination outside the game to log on at certain times, there's nothing we can do about that. For one thing, we can't find out about it unless they talk about it in-game.

For another, they'd have to actually report it. And why would they? All that's happening is they're mutually agreeing to log on at a certain time, which gives all of them an advantage. Who's getting hurt by it? No one who matters, certainly.

Just the enemy.

[Indirik]

Agreed, what if however they were all simply logging in at that time because thats the timezone they were in/all got home etc etc etc etc?

Oh, I agree. The specific time zone that people live in can definitely cause play patterns that look to other people like exploits.

During the fourth invasion, for example, the GM playing the monster realm was accused of late-turn-moving on purpose to gain advantages. That's rubbish. I know that the GM playing the monsters lived in a particular time zone that meant that for one turn, his regular playing time meant that for one of the two turns he played his characters closer to the turn change. To do otherwise would have required him to change around his life and sleep times.

[Vellos]

There may not ever have been a specific request, instruction, or even suggestion to log in at a certain time. It may simply be that they know that gives them an advantage, so they all tacitly agree to do so.

And even if there was some kind of explicit coordination outside the game to log on at certain times, there's nothing we can do about that. For one thing, we can't find out about it unless they talk about it in-game.

For another, they'd have to actually report it. And why would they? All that's happening is they're mutually agreeing to log on at a certain time, which gives all of them an advantage. Who's getting hurt by it? No one who matters, certainly.

Just the enemy.

And if we observe that this is, in fact, happening; that realms are displaying disproportionately high time-coordination, even aside from time zona considerations; if they are acting with coordination in excess of that which would seem to follow from the messages they send IG.... I'd call that evidence of OOG clanning. I do not believe OOG planning can be inclusive, personally. I just don't think it's possible. Moving OOG is costly: note how few players get on IRC. It creates a powerful clique that finds it worthwhile to pay that cost, and a less powerful group that is unable or doesn't find it worthwhile.

But that's just my perspective. I would say that we might not be able to perfectly prove it, but we don't need to perfectly prove it. We need to observe that they're messing up the game for players; not behaving as if they are playing with and against friends. If a new noble couldn't plop down in their realm and gain access to things that can be reasonably expected for a competent nobles (army membership, oath, chance to hear about some realm politics/issues, opportunity to seek positions), looks like its exclusive to me. If the standard for competence is suspiciously high ("He won't make a good Marshal; he doesn't always make his moves less than 2 hours before the turn change"), again, I'd say that's enough to make a response.

I don't think this is really that hard to police. Between family histories, message volume, movement patterns, and gold transfers, I feel pretty convinced someone with database access (Tom) can identify a clan with an entirely adequate degree of precision, provided the time to sort the data is available.

[Geronus]

More to the point, I dare someone to come up with a practical, simple suggestion for how to prevent 'clanning' that isn't nightmarishly difficult to enforce. Heck, I dare someone to come up with a definition of 'clanning' in the negative sense that's shorter than a paragraph and more specific than 'I'll know it when I see it'.

[Ramiel]

More to the point, I dare someone to come up with a practical, simple suggestion for how to prevent 'clanning' that isn't nightmarishly difficult to enforce. Heck, I dare someone to come up with a definition of 'clanning' in the negative sense that's shorter than a paragraph and more specific than 'I'll know it when I see it'.

Exclusive on unreasonable grounds, co-ordinated without in-character messages being sent. ?

[Geronus]

Exclusive on unreasonable grounds, co-ordinated without in-character messages being sent. ?

Nice try. Now define 'unreasonable'  ;)

[Ramiel]

Nice try. Now define 'unreasonable'  ;)

When it doesnt make sense in character. I guess? :S