Message #42727

[Thunthorn]

A situation on Beluaterra recently caused a discussion about the rather unrealistic way the game treats two hostile armies that moves towards each other at the same time. Today this just means that the armies switch place and that no battle occurs except against  stragglers that didn't move.

My take on how I think the game should handle this situation is as follows:

Situation: We have two armies in region A and region B that are hostile to each other. Army A moves to region B and Army B moves to region A.

Units that are not successfully evading should meet in battle against hostile units on the road.

Only the move attempted by the winning side should succeed. The losing side should be driven back to the region they started from.

The winning side should arrive at the chosen destination and possibly have to fight a second battle against any hostile units there.

This change would make the frontl in a war feel more like a proper frontline.

[Sacha]

It's not THAT unrealistic that armies cross each other. If your border is a dew dozen miles long, it's quite possible that the armies don't meet.

[Anaris]

We have some long-term plans to do something like this. However, it's not as simple as it sounds. All battles now take place in a particular region, and who that region belongs to determines who the attacker and defender are, among other things. There are just a lot of decisions that need to go into implementing battle that's not in a specific region.

[Tom]

Also, was Sacha says: Unless there is a chokepoint (a bridge, say), it is actually more realistic for the armies to miss each other than to have a chance meeting.

[Thunthorn]

Not if they have competent scouts, although these should also make it easier to actually evade battle if you try it.

I buy the argument that it is hard to implement though...

[De-Legro]

Not if they have competent scouts, although these should also make it easier to actually evade battle if you try it.

I buy the argument that it is hard to implement though...

Even once you factor in the time it would take competent scouts to locate the other army, avoid detection by THEIR scouts and outriders and return to the army, have you ever though about how much time it takes to get a army that is strung out in "travel" mode to a location where they can all stop and organise into battle formation? Or how long it takes to advise a complete marching column of a change of orders and a new destination? This is of course after the military leaders have taken the time to estimate the speed of travel of the enemy, their own speed, the time taken to draw up into battle formations, the lay of the land and suitable locations to deploy in.

[Gustav Kuriga]

Many battles have occurred when one unit meets another and begins a skirmish, drawing the rest of the armies into a huge battle. You only have to look at the Battle of Gettysburg to realize this. So saying that they have to line up and face the enemy before engaging in battle is ludicrous. It may be preferred to line up before battle, but rarely do things go the way you want them to in war.

[Anaris]

Many battles have occurred when one unit meets another and begins a skirmish, drawing the rest of the armies into a huge battle. You only have to look at the Battle of Gettysburg to realize this. So saying that they have to line up and face the enemy before engaging in battle is ludicrous. It may be preferred to line up before battle, but rarely do things go the way you want them to in war.

BattleMaster has no support for battles that do not begin with all units already in place and in battle formation.  Adding such support would be very time-consuming.

[De-Legro]

Many battles have occurred when one unit meets another and begins a skirmish, drawing the rest of the armies into a huge battle. You only have to look at the Battle of Gettysburg to realize this. So saying that they have to line up and face the enemy before engaging in battle is ludicrous. It may be preferred to line up before battle, but rarely do things go the way you want them to in war.

Yeah, cause Gettsburg was SUCH A GREAT medieval battle that required disciplined melee formations. We are talking an age were battle still often had agreed starting time so both armies could deploy. If you are going to ambush an enemy, then yes you are going to want to ensure your army has time to draw up into correct formations. Heavy Cav for example loses almost ALL of its effectiveness if it is not correct formed up. Depending on how soon they expected to meet the enemy we also need to factor in that units may not already be wearing full armour and have their battle loads equipped.

Sure you could use your skirmishing archers and MI to pester your opponent while you form up, and often did, but that doesn't detract from the fact that the way medieval armies marched didn't lend themselves to rapid deployment into fully equipped ready to go units.

Conversely the enemy would use THEIR skirmishing troops to do the same so they could form up into battle formations, or to cover them while they move to more advantageousness grounds, or they attempt to withdraw completely.

Notice I never said battles COULDN'T occur when two travelling armies meet, simply that it is not a given. Even if your scouts detect the enemy chances are you can't force them to battle, or you misjudge their travel direction and they slip by.

[Thunthorn]

Traveltimes are calculated from the supposition that there are some route that are considered to be the optimal way between two regions. This would imply that unless one side is actively evading (which should be easier on the road) they should meet on this supposedly optimal way.

This being hypothecial. I fully bow to the idea that it can be hard to implement.

[egamma]

I like the War Islands way of handling things--meeting at the border means that neither side gets defensive advantage, and the winning army gets to continue on to their intended destination.

[Marlboro]

It might just be easier to make a new travel failure notice for the smaller army. "The roads are blocked by an incoming army" or something to that effect, not unlike when you run into a dead end and it adds four hours to your travel time. I think I've had something like that happen to one of my characters while he was marching with his own army, in fact.

I suppose this doesn't solve the problem completely since the smaller army or unit would still be in Travel mode and not fighting, but it could at least delay their movement as they have to find a way around the van, and grant a strategic advantage to the incoming forces since they can now swing around and give chase.

[vonGenf]

It might just be easier to make a new travel failure notice for the smaller army. "The roads are blocked by an incoming army" or something to that effect, not unlike when you run into a dead end and it adds four hours to your travel time. I think I've had something like that happen to one of my characters while he was marching with his own army, in fact.

I think this is what you see when an infiltrator uses the "Disrupt travel" option. It is not random, and armies can already do that - provided they have infiltrators, of course.

[Marlboro]

I think this is what you see when an infiltrator uses the "Disrupt travel" option. It is not random, and armies can already do that - provided they have infiltrators, of course.

I phrased it kind of badly. The instance I'm referring to specifically noted that it was due to the large amount of soldiers on the road, and it added a pretty big block of time to the travel (Four or six hours).

[Charles]

Admiting complete ignorance of the dificulties in coding, I would think that causing one army to not move would be easiest.  The moving army could be chosen by CS, # of soldiers, # of TLs, or some combination of this.  Or perhaps it could have something to do with home territory, ie the army that is at home stays in their region and defends (this would cause problems when both armies are leaving their realms to attack in the other realm). 
If this is implemented, it would be good to allow Marshals to have two settings one for defence and the other for offense.  That way they do not have to guess whether they will be successful in moving or not.