What do you think is wrong?

[Gustav Kuriga]

I'm pretty sure you are mixing reactionary antagonism (I hope I didn't just create my own term...) with frustration of the characters with the fact that the Elders in SA tend to not inform the rest of the church about their talks as well as they could. After the trial of Allison was started, nothing was heard except the repeated mantra "we are still holding it". This went on for at least a month before it ended, and so little was achieved I'm not sure if the trial itself was dismissed or if Allison was found not guilty.

Of course, characters may be frothing at the mouth because deeply held beliefs are being challenged (is the Prophet infallable), or because the player is bored and wants to stir things up (possibly Allison is an example).

[songqu88@gmail.com]

The perplexing matter though, is that behavior that was decidedly contrary to that which would have been expected of nobles is apparently rewarded in this game. I know I'm at a later period in referring to the Book of the Courtier (It deals with Renaissance Italy, but still dealt with noble decorum), however the fact remains that if you're a noble, you simply don't act react the way people might react commonly nowadays. The modern method of antagonism is often crude and direct, the commoners' way of dealing with things, and why not? We are in an era where such distinctions between noble and commoner are for the most part obsolete. Not so in BM.

If you play a noble, then act the part, or get no rewards. Sure, you can be rude and direct, but that should not get you any positions. While the constantly smiling, polite, inwardly scheming character is quite annoying, it seems as though that would be the accurate noble. However, I may be wrong on this, as I am looking at a later period, and for all I know medieval nobles were completely unrefined lowlifes, making the crude behavior by some players imparted on their characters quite fitting in such cases. I doubt that to be the case, though.

Now, to be fair, I have acted the same on some characters. I can recall that Ramuh, Iksandros, and Garret, have given rough replies to nobles. In the cases of Ramuh and Garret, the reason shouldn't be hard to figure out. Iksandros is an outlaw, so it shouldn't be surprising either. However, for the other nobles, I do not go into any sort of base arguing using direct language more fitting for commoners. It's all about the talking in circle kind of deal.

Of course, I think the primary reason we see some characters being so direct and not caring about any possible decorum or protocol which would have probably meant life or death in a medieval court, is because the players are...well, unfamiliar with any sort of decorum or protocol.

[De-Legro]

What we really need are examples of noble behaviour for the time period. I know that at some times in history nobility themselves were crude by the standards of later "courtly" times, but I have no references that might place when and where this was.

[songqu88@gmail.com]

I'm inclined to believe that it wouldn't matter. Some players are used to the "smile and speak nicely while holding poison to the cup offered in friendship" method, while I have a feeling that the vast majority are more used to the "slap back when you get slapped" method.

Here's some suspicions I have about things that might have happened:

1. Anyone, noble or commoner, who insulted the king would probably see his headless body soon enough, or dangle a couple of feet in the air. Perhaps in the better outcomes, the noble would be exiled forever instead. The commoner would probably die like a dog no matter what. In any case, there probably was a whole laundry list of protocols to follow in the royal court, so even if you thought the king and every other noble in the court was a huge idiot, you hated their guts with a passion, desired them all to rot in forever in a pit of despair, recoil at the very thought of even laying eyes on their disgusting beings, you never said so, nor gave any indication that such were your thoughts, at least not directly. Well, maybe some courts were different, I suppose, though I can't imagine how such noble pride would allow them to speak like peasants would. Hm, many of us probably lack noble pride because we aren't nobles, and so the acting breaks down when under pressure, or we slip up occasionally anyway. Ah....

2. If a religion has enough influence, then a noble of no significant standing in that religion would not do well to insult or otherwise cross the elders. I have a hunch that a noble in medieval Europe would have his life and career ruined at the very least if he ever said anything bad about the Pope. Not so in BM. Sure, you can get cast out of the religion, but, big deal, right? Most religions can't or have no interest, in dealing with those brash upstarts. Most of the time, that's justified. After all, who cares about what pointless generic noble follower says? It does get a bit dumb when a priest keeps being a jerk in the religion though, as that would mean everyone who doesn't care for his opinion must ignore him.

3. You know those duels that Tom says aren't meant for sport? Well, they were meant for something. Back then, I have a feeling that duels of honor occurred over the slightest provocation. So if a noble starts talking too bluntly to you, challenge him to a duel. If he refuses, everyone else in the realm should be laughing at him, ostracizing him, basically cutting him off like some noob on 4chan who asks why there are so many typos. But no, that ain't happening. Even duels till surrender are usually brushed off or punishable by the realm. That has to do sometimes with the practical considerations, especially during war. But here's a thought: Be more subtle with your insults and provocations, and then there is no justification for a duel. If you want to spit stinky dung out of your mouth, then expect to pay for it.

But this all said, there are characters who can be like this. For one, adventurers are commoners, and they have none of the training in flowery euphemisms, nor any need to practice that, except perhaps to be more demure in front of nobles. Rogues are cut off from nobility for various reasons, and that can justify the lack of decorum due to the time spent outside the circle. Outlaws are outside the reach of the law, one of the things nobles probably held sacred, and so it would be something like a noble being noble only by blood, but otherwise a despised criminal. Savages who were born into nobility might qualify as well, but it takes one heck of a twisted and despicable noble family to even accept those as legitimate. Maybe we should also ostracize entire families? That sounds good to me if a player consistently creates characters that keep insulting people with no attempts at being subtle about it.

Now, I understand that English is not the first language for many players, and that it is hard to achieve such a feat in another language. But those cases are often quite obvious, and hopefully the player at least appears to be trying his best to affect the air of nobility. I am talking more about those who have no problems with English doing that. For example, I have definitely been on the wrong side of decorum as Garret, Iksandros, Ramuh, Samael (Who started as a commoner), and Zephyros. In those cases, I sometimes faced the outcomes that would have been expected, meaning banishment and other sorts of stuff, which is a good thing. Still, I would say, even to myself, that for the most part, avoid saying things too bluntly, and if I have nothing better to say than a really questionable "You're an idiot/whatever other term", then better not to say it. Hm, come to think of it, I only ever called people stupid as Garret while still in SA back in 2008. Ha, SA does bad things to people I guess.

[Indirik]

I'm pretty sure you are mixing reactionary antagonism (I hope I didn't just create my own term...) with frustration of the characters with the fact that the Elders in SA tend to not inform the rest of the church about their talks as well as they could.

Events in SA are one example of what I was talking about, but by no means the only one. They are not even all on Dwilight.

Of course, characters may be frothing at the mouth because deeply held beliefs are being challenged (is the Prophet infallable), or because the player is bored and wants to stir things up (possibly Allison is an example).

Find a way to express your "deeply held beliefs", or stir up some trouble, with resorting to screaming and yelling bitter insults at your superiors.

[Glaumring the Fox]

Sundar is an exception. I always enjoyed reading your RPs in Arcaea.

Yeah I stopped RP with Sundar in Arcacea because I figured out that everyone could read Sundars mind and know things in RP's even though they weren't there. Its basically a popularity contest and Sundar was a roleplayed character, no one was having it...  :-X

[Vellos]

Find a way to express your "deeply held beliefs", or stir up some trouble, with resorting to screaming and yelling bitter insults at your superiors.

Terse letters are an excellent means. Or refusing to follow orders. Or evading taxes. Or refusing to sell food. Or raising taxes on a vassal (for dukes). Or excommunicating. Or auto da fe'ing someone's knights.

[WarMaid]

What I feel is what is most wrong, is the rampant disrespect, incivility, and insulting attitude among the nobility. Too many players think that the proper way to respond to something you don't agree with is to fling insults and vitriol. It has become pretty commonplace for nobles to insult their lords, question the competence of councilors, and other such blatantly disrespectful and insulting behavior.

Yes, yes, yes.  Horrible, blatant disrespect of nobles /up/ the food chain including their own lieges, Council members, even their ruler...rudeness in speech and in "action" (in RPs).

On some levels, realm leaderships have some responsibility.  Judges should fine people for egregious discourtesy in public discourse or action (and should be supported by their Ruler and the rest of the Council).  Honourable duels as a means of settling disputes shouldn't be outlawed.  Rulers should lead the way in expecting proper behaviour and modelling it.

There have definitely been time when I wished there was still some sort of "question nobility" action that I could take (even if it didn't have the same sorts of effects as the old mechanic).  There have been some people whose letters and publicly RP'd actions would absolutely lead me to doubt their nobility!

[Bedwyr]

Yeah I stopped RP with Sundar in Arcacea because I figured out that everyone could read Sundars mind and know things in RP's even though they weren't there. Its basically a popularity contest and Sundar was a roleplayed character, no one was having it...  :-X

You sent letters with absolutely insane ramblings about prophecies, consistently whined about how your shoes would be ruined by marching in a realm run by and based on bloody war with a former adventurer as King, and performed blatant toadying.  Then when you didn't get positions you wanted started OOC bitching about how Jenred only appointed people he liked (which, of course, he does, that's one of the nifty things about being a Monarch) and accused the entire realm of bad roleplaying.  I had enough of your pathetic whining in Arcaea that you are only the second person I have ever put on my ignore list.

Don't spread your patently ridiculous lies any further.

[De-Legro]

Sundar was a fun character, but nothing in the post he ever sent to the realm would really suggest he was fit to hold any position in a realm based on war. We didn't need RP's to know that.

[Glaumring the Fox]

You sent letters with absolutely insane ramblings about prophecies, consistently whined about how your shoes would be ruined by marching in a realm run by and based on bloody war with a former adventurer as King, and performed blatant toadying.  Then when you didn't get positions you wanted started OOC bitching about how Jenred only appointed people he liked (which, of course, he does, that's one of the nifty things about being a Monarch) and accused the entire realm of bad roleplaying.  I had enough of your pathetic whining in Arcaea that you are only the second person I have ever put on my ignore list.

Don't spread your patently ridiculous lies any further.

Ok I am going to have to dig up Sundars RP's if they are still able to be found. Secondly Sundar never made prophecy, thirdly I complained OOC because it was ridiculous serving in a realm of roleplay telepaths, and lastly you didn't like the fact that Sundars roleplay was the only person ever to roleplay around you that didn't lick your balls, you couldn't handle it and you had issues with it instead of being a good sport and interacting with Sundar, you had a hissy fit and wouldn't do it because Sundars whole roleplay was about being a two faced, fake noble who  wanted to be king. Dude you have serious mental problems when you have to put a guy on ignore because you don't like his roleplays...get over yourself

Sadly I just checked Sundars RP's are all gone from the list, anyone else able to post them?

[De-Legro]

Ok I am going to have to dig up Sundars RP's if they are still able to be found. Secondly Sundar never made prophecy, thirdly I complained OOC because it was ridiculous serving in a realm of roleplay telepaths, and lastly you didn't like the fact that Sundars roleplay was the only person ever to roleplay around you that didn't lick your balls, you couldn't handle it and you had issues with it instead of being a good sport and interacting with Sundar, you had a hissy fit and wouldn't do it because Sundars whole roleplay was about being a two faced, fake noble who  wanted to be king. Dude you have serious mental problems when you have to put a guy on ignore because you don't like his roleplays...get over yourself

Sadly I just checked Sundars RP's are all gone from the list, anyone else able to post them?

And you simply won't accept that the RP's where irrelevant to the opinion of the other characters of the realm. When you post MESSAGES (note NOT RP's) that you don't want to march to war because it may damage your slippers, or post endless messages asking where is the best place to buy those slippers, then from the perspective of our characters, Sundar is a useless flop not worth promoting. I know for a fact that RP's wouldn't hold you back, since My character has from time to time RP'd planning to harm Jenreds family, yet has NEVER uttered such things in messages, and I was still able to gain a title in the realm.

[Glaumring the Fox]

A useless flop who happens to be a noble and if you ever watched Caligula, being a useless flop never stopped thousands of useless flops from running kingdoms and holding positions of power. If Arcacea wasn't so bent on being a powerhouse, they might allow RP outside of dainty romance to survive in a mostly silent realm of over 75 nobles...Wonder why? Its because most of the realms nobles are there to 'win' and 'win' only.

[WarMaid]

Ok I am going to have to dig up Sundars RP's if they are still able to be found. Secondly Sundar never made prophecy, thirdly I complained OOC because it was ridiculous serving in a realm of roleplay telepaths, and lastly you didn't like the fact that Sundars roleplay was the only person ever to roleplay around you that didn't lick your balls, you couldn't handle it and you had issues with it instead of being a good sport and interacting with Sundar, you had a hissy fit and wouldn't do it because Sundars whole roleplay was about being a two faced, fake noble who  wanted to be king. Dude you have serious mental problems when you have to put a guy on ignore because you don't like his roleplays...get over yourself

Sadly I just checked Sundars RP's are all gone from the list, anyone else able to post them?

This is flatly untrue and grotesquely unfair.

You did an incredible amount of roleplay regarding actions that your character was doing publicly not to mention the letters which you sent to the realm and exchanged with other nobles.  These public actions and public letters indicated that your character was a grotesquely fat, lazy, gluttonous buffoon with a hard-on for fancy slippers.  What about that person was likely to win positions and influence in the realm?

Personally, I found your RP amusing and enjoyed exchanging a few messages with Sundar.  When it got /not/ cool was when you started whining OOC that you didn't get promoted because we were mind-readers about Sundar's secret plans to overthrow Jenred.  Newsflash!  That's not why!  It's because your /Roleplayed/ character was a useless buffoon.

If you had RP'd a competent noble who secretly wished for Jenred's downfall...you totally would have been promoted!  That's the kind of thing that makes for really good RP...fun character development!  Secret plots!  That's good stuff.  Instead, you wrote yourself into a corner and then you want to blame Matt /OOC/ because his /character/ doesn't think that your /character/ is a good choice for a lordship. 

This OOC attacking is /crap/ and you are just plain wrong in every regard.

[Bedwyr]

Ok I am going to have to dig up Sundars RP's if they are still able to be found. Secondly Sundar never made prophecy, thirdly I complained OOC because it was ridiculous serving in a realm of roleplay telepaths, and lastly you didn't like the fact that Sundars roleplay was the only person ever to roleplay around you that didn't lick your balls, you couldn't handle it and you had issues with it instead of being a good sport and interacting with Sundar, you had a hissy fit and wouldn't do it because Sundars whole roleplay was about being a two faced, fake noble who  wanted to be king. Dude you have serious mental problems when you have to put a guy on ignore because you don't like his roleplays...get over yourself

Sadly I just checked Sundars RP's are all gone from the list, anyone else able to post them?

One person used stuff from the roleplays.  I would also note that many of those roleplays were about Sundar doing things in public, and again, you sent a lot of letters early on that did nothing good for Sundar's rep.

Jenred is a paranoid psychotic who enjoys murdering people with his bare hands if he thinks they deserved it.  He runs Arcaea like a dictatorship.  As a former adventurer Sundar's obsession with luxury offended him.  All these are in-character things.

And why should Jenred have interacted with Sundar?  No reasons were given.

I put you on ignore after you went nuts and starting accusing everyone in the realm of OOC issues.  Evidently you decided you were only "drunk" or some such nonsense, but by that point, I just didn't care anymore.  I didn't read Sundar's roleplays for months before you took it OOC, so I really don't have the faintest idea what you're talking about with Sundar wanting to be king.

I don't care about what people do in-character.  Sundar could have started a rebellion, and Matt would have thought it was cool.  I care when someone starts whining OOC because he didn't get a position when he didn't do anything to get the one person in the realm who got to award those positions on his side, and actively did things that pissed off that same person.

You wanted voting and elections for the positions.  That's fine.  Go to a republic, a democracy, somewhere that actually wants those things.  Arcaea is, and has been, effectively a dictatorship for years.

To sum up: I don't care what you do in-character.  You defame me OOC and it pisses me the hell off.