Re: Idea: Plate Mail

[De-Legro]

I will add my voice to the growing number of people unsatisfied with the item system. I remember trying to even make sense of how to even go about speaking to Sages, let alone getting an item to them for repairs, and having to have the right stuff from gathering. Combine this with a degradation system where items disappear when they reach 0%, and it really gets frustrating. No one in any of my realms does role-plays of Unique items. De-Legro seems to be the exception of all of this, and considers himself the rule, no matter how many observations to the contrary.

Actually it is simple. Ask yourself this, are nobles still buying items? Do you still see items coming up in battles? If the answer is yes, then at least SOME subset of the player base is sticking with them.

Personally, the way items are implemented is NOT what I would choose to implement. That doesn't mean I think they are broken though, the system works fine so far as I can see, its just not to my preference. I always dislike that the artifacts in the Elder Scroll games would just disappear as well.

This is what I am trying to point out, there is a marked difference between, I don't like it or I would prefer to see x and saying, the system is broken.

[Creed]

I hate the unique item set up we have now. I have bought a couple unique items and have just let them degrade away because it is such a hassle to repair them. Why can we not have like a Blacksmith implemented into the game that can repair Unique items and what not. They can work like RC were it is random on if you will receive a common blacksmith that is nothing special or like a grandmaster blacksmith that can repair unique items up to full but just like RC the better the Blacksmith the more expensive he is to the realm to have.

I would even go so far as to allow Blacksmiths to be able to make famous swords or armor or shields that might not be as good as unique items but are better then just normal swords. You can have it the better the level of the Blacksmith the better the things he can make. For example a Grandmaster level blacksmith can make legendary weapons that are far better then anything else but cost a huge amount of gold to buy.

Adventures can play into this to like some of the materials you need to make these weapons can only be gathered through adventures and this is how they can get letter of recommendations.

Also it opens up reasons to war another country if they have gotten a Grandmaster level Blacksmith other realms are going to want it and will invade the realm to gain use of him.

You could even make Blacksmiths only able to build one thing for example one realm may have a swordsmith but another have a armorsmith and rulers can charge nobles of other realm a fee to use their blacksmith.

[Indirik]

This is what I am trying to point out, there is a marked difference between, I don't like it or I would prefer to see x and saying, the system is broken.

There is also another possibility as well: That the system is not achieving what it was intended to be its true potential. Yes, they do get cycled in and out, advys find them and give/sell them to nobles, etc. But the idea was to create some kind of legacy, a storied history. When you find an item, you're supposed to be able to go look on the wiki and see it's history, who owned, when it was first found, etc. But the transitory nature of items means that this simply does not happen. You're almost guaranteed that the item you have found/bought is a brand new item with nothing more than an enigmatic, and possibly silly, name. I don't think they've achieved the level of RP meaning they could potentially have with just some simple changes.

What I would prefer to see is a system where the recycling of items is greatly increased. Names should be reused more frequently, allowing the items to amass greater history. Without that history, people just can't get a connection to their transitory items. If they wee allowed to develop that history then you'd get player attachment, and items that actually have meaning and permanence. Maybe when an item hits 0%, there should be a chance that instead of simply being deleted, it gets transported to a random region to be refound, or put in a holding pool to be handed out by the next undead champion that gets killed. The better the item, the greater chance it has of being  recycled. So the piddly little +1 Oil of Ygg d'Razzhul will probably be deleted, but the +14 Daemon Bone Broadsword of Cruel Suffering (+20% swordfighting) will be a near-permanent fixture of the island.

We don't need every item to last forever. We don't even need every item to be able to be held for 2 years straight without needing repairs. 4-6 months is a good figure for an average item, I think. Some longer, some shorter. And I think that with the current system we have that. But the permanence of decay is a major downer for quite a few people.

Actually it is simple. Ask yourself this, are nobles still buying items? Do you still see items coming up in battles? If the answer is yes, then at least SOME subset of the player base is sticking with them.

Simply saying "Look at all the items in huge battle reports" doesn't really tell us anything other than that there is a small percentage of nobles that own items. What we don't know is:

• How good the item is.
• How long they have had the item.
• How many times it has been repaired.
• Is there any particular history involved with this item?
• How many other people have owned it?
• Do they care about the item as anything more than a small prestige boost?
• Did they buy it because they wanted a unique item, or did they buy it because buying it helps out another player and they wanted to be nice?
• If they lost it during a battle, would they put any serious effort into getting it back?

We can't really tell how invested people are to their items.  For all you know, each and every item you see in a battle report could be a disposable item the noble only recently got from an advy. But we can't know either way, because that kind of data is not tracked at all. A huge battle report about a battle my Dwilight character is in will show that he has an item. But I don't really care about it, only having bought it because some random advy offered it to me, cheap. Using my character as an example of how the unique item system is active and thriving would be a serious misrepresentation. It means nothing more than that the mechanics still function.

A few simple changes in how unique items work could change the system from "Well, the mechanics obviously still work" to "Hey, this is an awesome feature, and has a huge amount of potential for story and conflict." Right now, we have the former. I'd really like the latter.

[Duvaille]

Fixing unique items is simple. Change decay so that once an item reaches 0% it will disappear or "get lost", and be added to a pool of items that can be discovered. The items retain their prestige bonuses and other bonuses. The simple change of circulating the same items instead of generating new ones would instantly encourage me to seek them and try to keep them alive as well as write stories about them and creating RP:s around them. I would likely go to great lengths trying to gain back the important items that are lost in one way or another, and would seek to build a reputation of some of the items as relics of a certain faith or emblems of this or that guild, or as traditional garments of a king or an emperor.

But right now, knowing that they will at some point vanish completely, I will not do any of the above.

I don't mind if  I have built a lot of lore about the Holy Crown of Awesomeness and it is then suddenly lost - if I know that it will likely appear again at a later point - even a year from now, as it could become something like a holy grail for my character, perhaps even the defining aspect of him, adding more stories, more interaction, more intrigue and more reasons for going to war and create conflict. All with a very simple change for the better.

Actually, I would not even mind if the item lost its prestige and stats, as long as the name just stuck around.

[Indirik]

Fixing unique items is simple. Change decay so that once an item reaches 0% it will disappear or "get lost", and be added to a pool of items that can be discovered. The items retain their prestige bonuses and other bonuses. The simple change of circulating the same items instead of generating new ones would instantly encourage me to seek them and try to keep them alive as well as write stories about them and creating RP:s around them.

I agree with this.

I'm not sure that all items have to be immortal. A chance for them to disappear forever allows new items to be found and/or created. It allows new stories to be started. But I don't think it should be the default behavior. The normal expectation when an item is lost should be that it will eventually be found again.

[vonGenf]

The better the item, the greater chance it has of being  recycled. So the piddly little +1 Oil of Ygg d'Razzhul will probably be deleted, but the +14 Daemon Bone Broadsword of Cruel Suffering (+20% swordfighting) will be a near-permanent fixture of the island.

Yes! This would be perfect, and simple.

[Fury]

How about a take from someone who has:

• been interested in unique items right from his first battle in the game?
• made it his No. 2 objective in the game to own and use them?
• currently has 1 noble and THREE (3) adventurers?
• holds and has held the current record (29) for creating/finding unique items for a very long time?

Under the current system on stable islands, unique items are:

• quite easy to repair
• less easy to create but still ok (you can even find one just by arriving in a region)

Many of the things said are true on both sides of the divide. However, as easy as it is to repair I've had many items destroyed due to lack of time as well as too high a rate of deterioration (80% condition drops to 0% in 3 days in one extreme case).

As easy as it is to repair them (yes, you just need a large enough collection of items to have a better chance of having something the sages need - which is why I laugh whenever the game tells me if it seems that there is not enough variety of things to find I should make a suggestion on the wiki and chances are that it will be added to the game - to have more types of items and lower our chances of having something the sages need? Not a chance - it's a trick suggestion!) in the end I am also finding it a chore to repair them. They typically last a month or two before needing repairs (30-40% condition). Lasting a whole year without needing repair? Never in my experience.

So, you really need an experienced adventurer who knows:

• how to search for sages
• how to search for common items (to repair UI)

Yes, there are tried and tested methods for doing so. It's too bad the game wants us to treat adventurers like dirt. The smart realms will know who their valuable human resources (not assets!) are. They are the realms with knights riding into battle wielding unique items.

Actually, the deterioration rate of unique items can be reset, theoretically. Yes, no need to tell me that it can't be done because it's hard-coded. I don't want to say more until I've had a successful test. And to those who have problems with unique items deteriorating there's a very simple temporary solution which you can PM me as I don't want to say it in the open.

Under the current system on testing islands (new sages), unique items are:

• not worth the bother.

[Anaris]

Actually, the deterioration rate of unique items can be reset, theoretically. Yes, no need to tell me that it can't be done because it's hard-coded. I don't want to say more until I've had a successful test. And to those who have problems with unique items deteriorating there's a very simple temporary solution which you can PM me as I don't want to say it in the open.

So you admit to having discovered an exploit, which you have not told the dev team about, but you are spreading around in private?

Please report this immediately as a bug, so that the dev team can confirm or refute it, and if you have, indeed, found a way to "reset" the deterioration rate of unique items, we can fix that.

[Fury]

It's a theory.
It's not a bug.
Because... one possibility - it's not the same item. I wouldn't be able to tell.

Another possibility is - something I wouldn't know for sure but can test. The deterioration would still be a subjective view (due to lack of personally keeping track and not a single success yet).

Both possibilities based on theories which are based on observations of other stats. The point of which, if one stat changes, other stats possibly change too.

[Shizzle]

I like the above, but I also want to add another thing. As an adventurer I find it a great drag to actually find a Sage. Maybe I'm just bad at it, but I've always dreaded having to travel around regions trying to find them. Even with the current rumours implemented: you're never sure where he went or when he'll get there. Nowadays, I can't really be bothered. If I find an item and see a sage I'll repair it, but searching for one is simply not rewarding at all.

Basically, I think this is a main problem in getting item repaired: it's no fun. Even if someone offers your advy a lot of gold it's still a gamble: you're likely to gain a powerful enemy if you fail to repair the item before it decays.

Of course a few things are good about the current system: I don't mind not having the right items in my inventory, and having to search for them (even if I need to travel a few days to a mountain region). I like how the Sages are fleshed out a little with their own personalities or quircks.

The main thing to adress here would be to make finding sages easier/more fun, by making the chance of success higher. It doesn't have to require less effort, it just needs to be less of a chore. If this can be achieved, more advies will be repairing items. Less items will be lost. The current system could be salvaged, without throwing overboard what we already have.

[Zakilevo]

Why not just make Sages stationary? Why must they travel all the time. Make things so much more simple if they just stay in one place like in a city.

[De-Legro]

There is also another possibility as well: That the system is not achieving what it was intended to be its true potential. Yes, they do get cycled in and out, advys find them and give/sell them to nobles, etc. But the idea was to create some kind of legacy, a storied history. When you find an item, you're supposed to be able to go look on the wiki and see it's history, who owned, when it was first found, etc. But the transitory nature of items means that this simply does not happen. You're almost guaranteed that the item you have found/bought is a brand new item with nothing more than an enigmatic, and possibly silly, name. I don't think they've achieved the level of RP meaning they could potentially have with just some simple changes.

What I would prefer to see is a system where the recycling of items is greatly increased. Names should be reused more frequently, allowing the items to amass greater history. Without that history, people just can't get a connection to their transitory items. If they wee allowed to develop that history then you'd get player attachment, and items that actually have meaning and permanence. Maybe when an item hits 0%, there should be a chance that instead of simply being deleted, it gets transported to a random region to be refound, or put in a holding pool to be handed out by the next undead champion that gets killed. The better the item, the greater chance it has of being  recycled. So the piddly little +1 Oil of Ygg d'Razzhul will probably be deleted, but the +14 Daemon Bone Broadsword of Cruel Suffering (+20% swordfighting) will be a near-permanent fixture of the island.

We don't need every item to last forever. We don't even need every item to be able to be held for 2 years straight without needing repairs. 4-6 months is a good figure for an average item, I think. Some longer, some shorter. And I think that with the current system we have that. But the permanence of decay is a major downer for quite a few people.
Simply saying "Look at all the items in huge battle reports" doesn't really tell us anything other than that there is a small percentage of nobles that own items. What we don't know is:

• How good the item is.
• How long they have had the item.
• How many times it has been repaired.
• Is there any particular history involved with this item?
• How many other people have owned it?
• Do they care about the item as anything more than a small prestige boost?
• Did they buy it because they wanted a unique item, or did they buy it because buying it helps out another player and they wanted to be nice?
• If they lost it during a battle, would they put any serious effort into getting it back?

We can't really tell how invested people are to their items.  For all you know, each and every item you see in a battle report could be a disposable item the noble only recently got from an advy. But we can't know either way, because that kind of data is not tracked at all. A huge battle report about a battle my Dwilight character is in will show that he has an item. But I don't really care about it, only having bought it because some random advy offered it to me, cheap. Using my character as an example of how the unique item system is active and thriving would be a serious misrepresentation. It means nothing more than that the mechanics still function.

A few simple changes in how unique items work could change the system from "Well, the mechanics obviously still work" to "Hey, this is an awesome feature, and has a huge amount of potential for story and conflict." Right now, we have the former. I'd really like the latter.

I completely agree the RP aspect could be improved. That is one reason I suggested a more automated history feature, since it is obvious relying on people to update the wiki isn't working in a lot of cases. Having a chance that items when they hit 0% are added to the lost item list (they would need a instant durability boost though or you would lose them as soon as they are found again) would be a nice change. Setting the system up to recycle the names more frequently though, that would be potentially more difficult, though I can see it being interesting  for a sword lost in Luria to end up with a monster in Darfix.

[Tom]

I like the above, but I also want to add another thing. As an adventurer I find it a great drag to actually find a Sage.

You'll find I have just added something to make it easier.

However, don't forget that repairing items was never intended to be a major activity for adventurers, and I have made it intentionally less reliable.

[Tom]

Why not just make Sages stationary? Why must they travel all the time. Make things so much more simple if they just stay in one place like in a city.

What for? Then I could remove them entirely.

[Gustav Kuriga]

You'll find I have just added something to make it easier.

However, don't forget that repairing items was never intended to be a major activity for adventurers, and I have made it intentionally less reliable.

Which is the point most of the people on here or the other thread were trying to make... that the Unique Items are too much of a hassle for what you get back, and either should be changed to make them worth having again, or replaced with something that is useful.