The Crusade against SA

[Geronus]

Yesterday (and today) they explicitly refused such offers, made by Astrum. Of course we as Corsanctum have little influence in these matters because our power and presence is very limited - a shame for SA, really. In any case it seems that the Caerwyn leadership is stubborn enough to let their entire realm go to waste rather than act like a beaten dog, suck it up, and stay alive to plot revenge on another day. Their loss, I think.

What I find rather strange about this war is that now SA will dominate about half of  the continent without a problem (nice hegemony), but it hasn't increased in numbers of nobles as you would expect. In fact, I dare say that it has reduced in nobles while it was continuously gaining ground. Two things come to mind; first, will SA stick together like they do now or will internal conflicts erupt? Second, will they even be able to keep the amount of land they have now, due to the reduced amount of nobles and the increased amount of land to cover.

In Corsanctum we have been discussing for several days now who the Lord of Tamirak should be. We have three units there (our army!) ready to "take it over". I'm sceptical. I think we can't keep it. We have only 18 (19?) nobles in the realm. It will just be another fiasco. The danger of stretching out like SA is doing now, is that you have to do more with less. Nobles will be occupied with keeping their region in control and that will require all their time. If SA is attacked, will they be able to answer strongly without loosing ground in their backyard?

I think the religion needs to attract new nobles by making it more appealing. Right now it's kind of a dead place to me, despite all the warnings that as a full member I would be swamped in messages (biggest lie ever). Hopefully they can set up a "funwar" in between realms which would attract more nobles and keep them busy. But it's all fun and games until someone looses an eye.

A victory for SA, that is for sure, but it's on the verge of imploding because it lacks the appeal to attract the nobles it needs.

It's actually the quietest I've ever seen it right now. I blame the war for keeping everyone distracted and focused on other things. It's during peace time that people like Allison start making trouble and getting the whole Church into an uproar.

Just you wait. Eventually this strange cease fire within the Church is going to fall apart. *Someone* is going to say or do something controversial, and then all bets are off. It's not unrealistic for there to be 100 messages waiting for you on a day like that.

[Geronus]

As for Caerwyn, looks like they'd rather die than make peace on our terms. I don't know how they expected us to agree to let them go back to what they were doing before, especially when you've got people like Baal spouting off anti-SA hate rhetoric in Golden Farrow...

[Indirik]

Dwilight is great, but it's the worst place to have a 1 noble per family rule.

IMNSHO, I think the 1-character rule for Dwilight is what makes it one of the more dynamic political environments. You don't have all those realms that are composed of five or six people all with two characters in the realm. Or realms politically welded together by multiple players with one character in each realm.

[Lorgan]

IMNSHO, I think the 1-character rule for Dwilight is what makes it one of the more dynamic political environments. You don't have all those realms that are composed of five or six people all with two characters in the realm. Or realms politically welded together by multiple players with one character in each realm.

Well yes, if I could have a 2nd noble I would definitely put it on the other end of the continent. Dwilight is so huge that they would probably never have anything to do with eachother.

[Indirik]

I think if the terms of Astrum didn't demand Golden Farrow then the treaty would have been accepted. Golden Farrow is Caerwyn in a certain sense. Many a Caerwynian views giving Golden Farrow to the Astroists as the same as destruction anyways.

Out of curiosity, what do you think would have been a fair peace treaty?

Keep in the following circumstances:

• Astrum never acted against Caerwyn in any way. In fact, Astrum often was the target of much criticism from many in SA over the federation, which Astrum refused to even consider dropping despite considerable pressure.
• Astrum/Morek/Corsanctum's willingness to rewrite their entire Brotherhood treaty to wording that was more acceptable to Caerwyn.
• The long-planned betrayal that Baal committed, complete with the gloating "Nyah, nyah! Look how bad we fooled you with our epic betrayal!" letters to the rulers.
• The brutality of the attack, which consisted of dozens of counts of KRB per day, and Caerwyn's blunt declaration that they didn't even want to capture the land, they were intent on widespread depopulation and destruction of Astrum through brute force.
• The attack not just on Astrum, but on all of SA as a body.
• The bitter rhetorical attacks on the vileness of SA by many members of Caerwyn.
• Caerwyn's statement that the war was a religious war, carried out by secular means. (This was, I believe, Baal's statement. I take it to mean that the secular power of Caerwyn (and possibly the fleeting organization know as the League of Free Nations) was attempting to destroy the religious institution of SA.)

So, put all that together and see if it makes any sense that Astrum, and SA in general, should accept Caerwyn's offer, which was essentially "We go back to our pre-war borders, and Caerwyn builds one or two temples of SA." Also, keep in mind that those promised temples would both be built by the same noble, and one of them was to be built at some time in the future, contingent on the assumption that Caerwyn could retake Itau, and that Daenah was then elected as Duchess.

At this point in the war it seems fairly obvious from the statements of Caerwyn's nobles that they feel absolutely no contrition or remorse for what they've done. Baal in particular has stated that he's willing to spend the life of, essentially, every noble and peasant in Caerwyn, and the siblings of their nobles' families, too, in order to make it as difficult as possible for Astrum to expand. The only noble of Caerwyn who has shown any sign of being willing to have peace with Astrum is Daenah.

[Lopeyschools]

Ironically Daenah was elected to make peace with Astrum. However when the list of Astrum's demands was voted on the realm it was unanimously rejected.

I don't know what would be accepted by Caerwyn's nobles. As a player I'm a little disappointed to see us go, but the character Graviel is determined to fight it out to the end.

[Geronus]

Ironically Daenah was elected to make peace with Astrum. However when the list of Astrum's demands was voted on the realm it was unanimously rejected.

I don't know what would be accepted by Caerwyn's nobles. As a player I'm a little disappointed to see us go, but the character Graviel is determined to fight it out to the end.

Oh Daenah seems sincere enough. The problem is that we don't trust the rest of you. From our perspective, Caerwyn has gone completely bat$&*% crazy. We've got Baal the Betrayer in Golden Farrow literally raving about imaginary SA plots to dominate the world (though to be fair, I seem to recall that the idea about us taking over the duchies of Dwilight one by one was planted in his head by none other than Allison herself). Can you honestly say we're wrong to fear what would happen if we let Caerwyn rebuild itself?

[JPierreD]

Out of curiosity, what do you think would have been a fair peace treaty?

Keep in the following circumstances:

• Astrum never acted against Caerwyn in any way. In fact, Astrum often was the target of much criticism from many in SA over the federation, which Astrum refused to even consider dropping despite considerable pressure.
• Astrum/Morek/Corsanctum's willingness to rewrite their entire Brotherhood treaty to wording that was more acceptable to Caerwyn.
• The long-planned betrayal that Baal committed, complete with the gloating "Nyah, nyah! Look how bad we fooled you with our epic betrayal!" letters to the rulers.
• The brutality of the attack, which consisted of dozens of counts of KRB per day, and Caerwyn's blunt declaration that they didn't even want to capture the land, they were intent on widespread depopulation and destruction of Astrum through brute force.
• The attack not just on Astrum, but on all of SA as a body.
• The bitter rhetorical attacks on the vileness of SA by many members of Caerwyn.
• Caerwyn's statement that the war was a religious war, carried out by secular means. (This was, I believe, Baal's statement. I take it to mean that the secular power of Caerwyn (and possibly the fleeting organization know as the League of Free Nations) was attempting to destroy the religious institution of SA.)

Keeping in these circumstances, did you ever really expect them to accept what you might consider a reasonable treaty?

It's rare that one who has been a King, on the verge of losing his crown, will accept becoming back a simple Knight, with little to no chances of ever becoming King again. Fleeing and trying a new life elsewhere seems more probable.
The analogy means: If Caerwyn gives Golden Farrow, they will stop being the regional top dogs, and become even smaller than Asylon, practically vassals of the new Theocracy (led by their biggest enemy) and a third-rate realm regionally.

Now I question: How did any of you expect someone in their right minds would accept their most hatred enemies are their suzerains, without real chances of coming back (you let it clear that you are cutting them that possibility)?

[Anaris]

Now I question: How did any of you expect someone in their right minds would accept their most hatred enemies are their suzerains, without real chances of coming back (you let it clear that you are cutting them that possibility)?

Because it's better than being dead.

[Bedwyr]

Now I question: How did any of you expect someone in their right minds would accept their most hatred enemies are their suzerains, without real chances of coming back (you let it clear that you are cutting them that possibility)?

Because the game has shown time and time again that the wheel always turns.  That said, no war is ever really over, either.  Even if all the original realms and original nobles are gone, someone someday will resurrect the "your old Ruler backstabbed so and so ten years ago, so that gives us the right to throw out this annoying peace treaty while you are conveniently fighting on the other side of the continent" excuse.

[Zakilevo]

Well guess Caerwynian nobles should find a nice home in the south. I heard they even send you a couple hundred gold coins for fun. Caerwyn doesn't want to lose anything. If they want to die that badly I say we let them.

[Telrunya]

Even if all the original realms and original nobles are gone, someone someday will resurrect the "your old Ruler backstabbed so and so ten years ago, so that gives us the right to throw out this annoying peace treaty while you are conveniently fighting on the other side of the continent" excuse.

And that's why I love Battlemaster :)

[Bedwyr]

And that's why I love Battlemaster :)

Same here!  I love the ancient history.  One of my favorite things about everyone on the Far East being able to contact Jenred is that somehow he ends up talking with lots of people who predate me in the game and I find out about loads of stuff.

[Lopeyschools]

Oh Daenah seems sincere enough. The problem is that we don't trust the rest of you. From our perspective, Caerwyn has gone completely bat$&*% crazy. We've got Baal the Betrayer in Golden Farrow literally raving about imaginary SA plots to dominate the world (though to be fair, I seem to recall that the idea about us taking over the duchies of Dwilight one by one was planted in his head by none other than Allison herself). Can you honestly say we're wrong to fear what would happen if we let Caerwyn rebuild itself?

No I can't say your wrong to worry Caerwyn would want revenge if allowed.  Historically though, harsh peace terms breed hatred. From as an OCC perspective, Caerwyn did kinda go crazy, too much peace melted our brains  :P
Baal's SA plot always seemed kinda flimsy on the evidence side and if I recall correctly his source was Allison, maybe not so coincidentally one of the nobles knocking down our door. I'm interested in how well we stay together after Golden Farrow falls, as realms go our seems to be fairly close-knit, if we are destroyed (highly likely) our greatest chance of a comeback would be to mass-immigrate to some realm in dire need of nobles. Join the emerging Lurian Empire as the Lurian-Caerwynian bloc? It would allow our characters to maintain their political power to a higher degree.

[Bedwyr]

That would be interesting...The lure of that many nobles would be hard for the Lurian realms to turn down.  There's a lot of land that could be taken...