The Crusade against SA

[Geronus]

Because it's better than being dead.

This. Also, there's nothing wrong with being a 'third rate realm'. Plenty of people play in one duchy or two duchy realms on Dwilight. We're not asking to appoint their ruler. We're not even demanding converts. We're simply stating that we won't permit them to retain the power to seriously threaten us again, and no peace will be possible until they have given that up or had it taken from them.

[Peri]

Historically though, harsh peace terms breed hatred.

That's perfect! Since you can't in any way damage Astrum now, pretend to be friendly, accept the peace, lick your wounds and prepare the comeback. Shaking your fists around full of "I will die before accepting your peace" kind of rhetoric is just wasting a lot of potential.

For instance, that was exactly what the Raivan Empire did a lot of time ago. They pretended to be friendly to Morek and just waited the good occasion. As soon as someone else joined them, they attacked Morek on all sides giving them fairly good chances to even the odds of their tiny realm vs a big one. It didn't go well for them, but at least they showed that living besides your arch enemy is certainly not going to be boring.

[Indirik]

Oh Daenah seems sincere enough. The problem is that we don't trust the rest of you.

Not just that. But Caerwyn's proposal was almost written from the perspective of a personal commitment, rather than a realm's commitment. Daenah would build the temple in Golden Farrow. And when Itau was taken and Daenah was made duchess, in an open election no less, she would build a temple in Itau. There was little to nothing in any of her letters that indicated that Caerwyn as a whole would do this, or that "Caerwyn would guarantee this".

The fact that Caerwyn's original proposal was that we all go back to pre-war borders as if nothing had happened was just laughable. So I treated it as a "ask for the moon, and see what you can get" kind of thing on their part. So I wrote back the same thing: a complete list of the absolute most that we wanted. Now, true, we would not have backed off on most of that. But we were willing to negotiate things. However, Daenah did not even acknowledge receipt of my letter. Considering that her prior letter to me included an OOC note about the player not having a lot of time to play, I didn't even know IC that Caerwyn ever got the proposal. At least not until today when the nobles of Caerwyn were ridiculing the treaty before the recent battle.

[Lorgan]

Ceterum censeo Carthaginem esse delendam.

[Geronus]

I would be curious to know what that means. Something about arguing in Carthage... The rest is lost on me.

[Lorgan]

Roughly translated: "On other matters it is my opinion that Carthage should be destroyed"

It's a quote from Cato in between the 2nd and the 3d Punic war who ended _every_ speech in the Senate with that sentence. No matter what the subject was. And in the end, Carthage was destroyed.

The discussion here reminds me of the strong rival beaten down but allowed to live... until the Cato in SA gains some influence.

[Telrunya]

Just google it

[Indirik]

Keeping in these circumstances, did you ever really expect them to accept what you might consider a reasonable treaty?

I'm not sure. I knew that there was a rather zealous contingent of Caerwyn that wouldn't. But the letter we got from Daenah painted a rather different picture of a Caerwyn that was down on hard times, and that the majority of the realm never wanted the war, etc., etc. and that they really wanted peace.

It's rare that one who has been a King, on the verge of losing his crown, will accept becoming back a simple Knight, with little to no chances of ever becoming King again. Fleeing and trying a new life elsewhere seems more probable.
The analogy means: If Caerwyn gives Golden Farrow, they will stop being the regional top dogs, and become even smaller than Asylon, practically vassals of the new Theocracy (led by their biggest enemy) and a third-rate realm regionally.

...which could then eventually grow larger, and challenge the oppressive theocracy that forced them to such hard times. As Peri pointed out earlier, this is exactly what Perdan did. Twice. We swallowed our pride and took our lumps. Then we came back and kicked some ass. Both times. The first time we took back even more than we had before. The second war is still going on, but things look very good for Perdan.

If you fight to the end, then you're going to get an ending. And you'll probably like that end even less. You can't live to get your revenge, unless you, you know, survive. And I really wish more realms would take that approach, and agree that they lost. For now...

Now I question: How did any of you expect someone in their right minds would accept their most hatred enemies are their suzerains, without real chances of coming back (you let it clear that you are cutting them that possibility)?

Well, of course we would start things off that way. But you will also note that we did not cut off the possibility of Caerwyn expanding and gaining strength. We specifically did not hedge them into one small set of regions. We left plenty of room for expansion in that agreement. Counting the fact that Caerwyn was going to go to war with Itaulond, and that we would gladly help destroy Itaulond, we wrote in 13 regions that Caerwyn could have, including two townslands and two duchies, without ever having to go to war with Asylon, Terran, or the new theocracy. I don't know the status of regions such as Inklen, Faithill, Barrow Peaks, or Lavendrow, so those are not counted in the 13. That could go up if the Cearwyn/Terran agreement grants them to Caerwyn. Also, it's quite possible that Caerwyn may want to go to war with Asylon,  allowing them to take Lower Via. That's a possible 18 regions without too much of a stretch of the imagination. Are those the best possible regions they could have? Of course not. But, then again... Hello! You lost the war!

[Adriddae]

I think many believe that a war is not over until one side is dead or destroyed.

[Indirik]

Historically though, harsh peace terms breed hatred.

As Peri said: "That's perfect!" We need more grudges, more strife, and more wars. Besides, is it possible to breed more hatred toward SA into Caerwyn? Given the rhetoric we're seeing, I hardly doubt that Caerwyn would be friendly toward us if we gave them back everything they had before, plus Eidub, to boot!

Baal's SA plot always seemed kinda flimsy on the evidence side and if I recall correctly his source was Allison, maybe not so coincidentally one of the nobles knocking down our door.

Well, Allison's "leaked plot" was a total fabrication designed to get Caerwyn to attack Astrum. She hoped this would force Morek to sign peace with her newly seceded realm, allowing it to live. It didn't really work out, though, as Morek decided to destroy her before marching to aid Astrum. Allison's participation in the war against Caerwyn was a separate ploy manufactured by the now-deceased former ruler of Astrum, Rowan Geronus.

I'm interested in how well we stay together after Golden Farrow falls, as realms go our seems to be fairly close-knit, if we are destroyed (highly likely) our greatest chance of a comeback would be to mass-immigrate to some realm in dire need of nobles. Join the emerging Lurian Empire as the Lurian-Caerwynian bloc? It would allow our characters to maintain their political power to a higher degree.

Just be careful. The Lurian Novan ruler is SA-friendly. Too much anti-SA rhetoric will not make you many friends down there.

[Geronus]

No I can't say your wrong to worry Caerwyn would want revenge if allowed.  Historically though, harsh peace terms breed hatred. From as an OCC perspective, Caerwyn did kinda go crazy, too much peace melted our brains 
Baal's SA plot always seemed kinda flimsy on the evidence side and if I recall correctly his source was Allison, maybe not so coincidentally one of the nobles knocking down our door. I'm interested in how well we stay together after Golden Farrow falls, as realms go our seems to be fairly close-knit, if we are destroyed (highly likely) our greatest chance of a comeback would be to mass-immigrate to some realm in dire need of nobles. Join the emerging Lurian Empire as the Lurian-Caerwynian bloc? It would allow our characters to maintain their political power to a higher degree.

It will be hard to find welcome in some realms with a strident anti-SA attitude. I doubt Asylon or Terran would permit the entrance of a mob of revenge-obsessed Caerwynians bent on sowing conflict with SA. The Lurians might, but then they're so far away from anything SA that it's hard to imagine it mattering. Not the ideal place to go if you want revenge, certainly. Although, such places would seem to be few and far between these days, wouldn't they?

[JPierreD]

Well, the Lurian realms are home of a lot of political intrigues and several overlapping factions, so it's very hard to tell their position.

The Nova-Lurian King is very pro-SA, but there is no actual Astroist noble in the whole Luria Nova that I know of, not even the King. And I don't think Astroist presence would be that much welcome by anyone other than the King Amaury, who'd rather keep the divide-and-conquer strategy. And that implies it not getting too big either. I suppose Verdis Elementum would be equally welcome by him, if in a moderate tone.

The Pian-Lurians are deeply entwined with the religion of the Manifest Path, which is present to a lesser extent in Luria Nova too, so they wouldn't likely welcome too warmly zealous Astroists or Elementalists, but might be more receptive to not-religious anti-something immigrants (I think).

And there is the Colony in Shinnen being prepared as we speak. That is a project that could accept some immigrants with less requirements.

[Geronus]

Well, if you're Lurian, there's scant reason not to take in the Caerwynians, other than their manifest untrustworthiness as betrayers of their allies. Of course, that would make them fit right in with the political culture down there, wouldn't it? 

I foresee a number of the hardline anti-SA refugees heading for Aurvandil, whose leaders seem to share their attitudes. That seems a very logical home for them. Maroccidens beware...

[JPierreD]

lol indeed

The current Lurians /are/ trying to change that political culture, but we'll see how it ends.

[Lopeyschools]

It will be hard to find welcome in some realms with a strident anti-SA attitude. I doubt Asylon or Terran would permit the entrance of a mob of revenge-obsessed Caerwynians bent on sowing conflict with SA. The Lurians might, but then they're so far away from anything SA that it's hard to imagine it mattering. Not the ideal place to go if you want revenge, certainly. Although, such places would seem to be few and far between these days, wouldn't they?

If we leave as a group I imagine that most of will simply be happy to far from the centre of SA.