Approved 6692: Erecting statues and monuments

[Tom]

No tracking, please. It is a horror. Just imagine the character having emmigrated to another game world when his statue gets demolished. Then we have to track him down across continents. Ugh.

Instant +1 Prestige sounds right to me.

[Duvaille]

Tom,

Then I humbly yield. I confess I did not think of a character leaving the island and the complications it could cause. If we were to track it, he would need to lose all of the "statue prestige" upon leaving and should he come back, he probably ought to gain it back. It could probably be done but it just as probably is not worth the effort.

I suppose having it be expensive enough will ensure that it will not be exploited, just as JPierreD said. And since it needs to be done always to someone else and not for yourself, there are even less chances for that. And in any case, statues will be RP elements, and the prestige bonus is but a little candy on the side. So what we have now is:

• Pay 500 gold to erect a statue at your estate in the honor of another existing character, giving him an immediate +1 prestige.
• Statues can be also demolished.
• 
  When you build a statue, you get to describe its appearance and write a few lines on a plaque attached to it.
• 
  The statues in a region can be viewed in the "descriptions tab" in the regional view.
• A realm wide message is sent when a statue is erected and demolished.

I think it is ready. What do we do now? Post it on the bug tracker?

[Indirik]

"Pay 500 gold to erect a statue at your estate in the honor of another existing character, giving him an immediate +1 prestige."

I still dislike this part. A statue should give prestige to the character that builds it. Also, it should not be a requirement that it be built in the honor of an existing character. And why can't I build a statue honoring myself? That's a perfectly valid tyrant-style move. Also, the "at your estate" requirement seems unnecessarily restrictive. It prevents this feature from being used by anyone who does not have an estate. Like rulers/dukes/council members who don't have estates.

[Duvaille]

"Pay 500 gold to erect a statue at your estate in the honor of another existing character, giving him an immediate +1 prestige."

I still dislike this part. A statue should give prestige to the character that builds it. Also, it should not be a requirement that it be built in the honor of an existing character. And why can't I build a statue honoring myself? That's a perfectly valid tyrant-style move. Also, the "at your estate" requirement seems unnecessarily restrictive. It prevents this feature from being used by anyone who does not have an estate. Like rulers/dukes/council members who don't have estates.

The point of the feature is exactly that you do not build statues to honor yourself, but to honor another character. It is easy to build one for yourself, but much harder to impress someone else to build it for you. Sure, it is not realistic, but I did not seek realism with this feature request but rather something that is "about the characters, by the characters". Still, a tyrant could very well order all the lords of his realm to erect a statue for his glory. He could do that, and probably many will. But can a Baron of Backlands do the same?

It is about estates because a statue would then come with a cost, assuming there is a limited number of buildings you can have at an estate once the system is fully running. The cost is not upkeep, but a building slot taken, so there is a pressure to get rid of unnecessary or offensive statues. The meaningful ones will remain.

Without some sort of an eventual limit to them, it would be just as well to just write the statues to the wiki. And cheaper too. And just about as meaningful.

[vonGenf]

And why can't I build a statue honoring myself? That's a perfectly valid tyrant-style move.

That's a valid argument: you should cross the "another" part.

A statue should give prestige to the character that builds it.

This doesn't follow. If that's the case, then it becomes "spend 500 gold and get +1 prestige". There is no RP attached.

If you build a statue to honor your King, then that's something impressive.

[Anaris]

If you build a statue to honor your King, then that's something impressive.

And if you build a statue to honour some controversial figure (like, say, Bowie Ironsides, or just about any Lefanis), that has the potential to be even more fun! ;D

[Indirik]

The point of the feature is exactly that you do not build statues to honor yourself, but to honor another character.

Why not? We already do this when we build palaces. The text you get back talks about statues you raise in your own honor. Besides, it seems like a perfectly legitimate egocentric behavior to me.

To me, the requirement to name another existing character is simply unnecessarily limiting and restrictive. Many legitimate RP opportunities and logical actions will not be possible. Such as statues to commemorate fallen heroes, legendary sieges, historic characters, etc., as well as self-indulgent behaviors that are otherwise allowed in other places.

[/quote]It is easy to build one for yourself, but much harder to impress someone else to build it for you.[/quote]
"Hey, here's 500 gold, you build a statue for me, and I'll build one for you."

It is about estates because a statue would then come with a cost, assuming there is a limited number of buildings you can have at an estate once the system is fully running. The cost is not upkeep, but a building slot taken, so there is a pressure to get rid of unnecessary or offensive statues. The meaningful ones will remain.

Also opportunity for idiots to remove perfectly legitimate statues just so they can build their own unnecessary or offensive monument. Also, tying them to estates means they could be destroyed or lost when a lord disbands (or maybe even resizes?) the estate on which the monument is built.

And if you build a statue to honour some controversial figure (like, say, Bowie Ironsides, or just about any Lefanis), that has the potential to be even more fun! ;D

Which you could still do, even without the requirement that a statue be dedicated to an existing character.

This doesn't follow. If that's the case, then it becomes "spend 500 gold and get +1 prestige". There is no RP attached.

Which is what investing in regions currently is. Spend your gold, get your prestige. Except that investing is (usually) less expensive.

If you build a statue to honor your King, then that's something impressive.

No, it's brown-nosing. :P

[Bael]

I said no. Why is it so hard to accept that? The reasons have been given extensively by others.

Sure, you did say no. And I'm perfectly fine with it. But your reasoning didn't seem to be that logical. No doubt I'm only looking at a small part of the picture. It really doesn't matter, one way or another.

[vonGenf]

No, it's brown-nosing. :P

Ok, let me put it that way: if a character has +52 prestige because he convinced 52 different people to spend their money and their estate space just to boost his ego, then I'm impressed.

If a character has +52 prestige because he has built a weekly statue to himself for the past year, I'm a bit disgusted.

[Indirik]

And if he has +52 prestige because he invests in his own region once per week for a year?

[Tom]

I like both. How about this:

You can build a statue both in your own honour and to honour someone else. Building it for someone else gives more prestige than building one for yourself.

Or, alternatively, it gives +1 to the builder and +1 to the one it is dedicated to, but it doesn't add up. That means building someone else a statue gives more prestige in total, but if you only care about yourself, it's the same thing.

[Indirik]

That sounds fine to me.  But will you still require them to be built specifically for an existing character? No building a post mortem monument to a dead hero?

[Duvaille]

How about this. Statues are built for the other characters and gains +1 prestige for builder and target. Then there are monuments that gain +1 for the builder, and can be about anything - even yourself if you feel like it.

I think there is value in knowing that a "statue" was built by someone else than the one it is about.

[Indirik]

I would think that who built a statue/monument would be recorded automatically by the game. How can it be prestigious to build it, if no one knows who did it?

[Penchant]

I would think that who built a statue/monument would be recorded automatically by the game. How can it be prestigious to build it, if no one knows who did it?

+1