Clan in Fontan and Aurvandil

[GoldPanda]

My particular bugbear though is that the current general is run by a player who still insists on issuing both realm wide and individual orders without in any way seeking to include marshals in that process, despite this having been addressed both IC and OOC. Such behaviour runs directly counter to the advice given in the manual on how to play a Government Position and this raises the spectre of power being abused to deliberately favour one group of players in Fontan at the expense of others.

These orders are issued on a turn-by-turn basis with very little explanation of a broader strategy and only characters of this particular group seem privy to any of the "special" orders relating to looting, which further adds to the impression of cliquishness.

Oh dear. I'm guessing that you don't play on Atamara. You'd think half of the island are clanners. :-\

For my part, I try my best to include Marshals in both the macro-strategy planning and micro-managing the logistics. However, often times I simply do not have the time to do this, and often times the Marshals do not have the time either.

The official advice is just that, advice, guidelines, not inalienable rights. I'm sorry, but you don't have an inalienable right to a competent General, much less a nice one.

When I was a controlling General I was highly successful, but I also made enemies within my own realm. It sounds to me that this is exactly what is happening in Fontan, and so I don't see how this is an OOC or Social Contract issue at all. Protest the General, hold a rebellion, or do something to oppose his rule. Have the Marshal directly contradict the General and claim direct control over the army. Any of these are legit IC actions and promote the fun of the game.

And this is happening in Fontan right now. At least one of the Marshals is publicly disobeying orders, sending contradictory orders, and basically daring the Judge to punish him. He was definitely not happy about being bypassed.

I know that my pov is biased, and I don't know what happened in Thulsoma and Aurvandil, but I just don't see anything suspicious happening in Fontan, other than an influx of new nobles. (I believe this happened in Westmoor as well?) If several of the government positions suddenly changed hands, then I'd agree that there is a problem. So far, the only ones complaining are a few Fontan players whose chars recently lost elections, and those on the other side of the war.

I have to agree with you. You are not a clanner.  But what about the 16 characters/11 players that are.

I respectfully request that you back that up with a list of players. I believe you're counting every noble who's ever been in both Aurvandil and Fontan, plus their family members in Fontan. Keep in mind that both realms have many players.

If this was a real clan invasion, those numbers would be 22 characters / 11 players.

[Draco Tanos]

Actually, you would be mistaken.  Westmoor has held relatively stable numbers over the last few months, bobbing up and down as people go active, inactive, or leave the game.  This has held true for months.  Fontan, however, surged only upwards within a..  What was it?  Two week period?  Mostly by those from the clanners. That is part of the issue.  Even Sirion has expressed concerns, at least IC.  Though they basically wrote Westmoor off OOC solely because they knew the clan was there and its tactics.

[Fury]

Investigations in Aurvandil and, to a lesser extend in Fontan, revealed that the military as well as the economy of those realms is working like clockwork with almost no in-game communication.

So what is the problem? Some might not be included to out of game communication? Count me into that, I never post on the forum, and I don't intend to play the game by the forum, or find my gameplay subject to the hearsay of a few players on the forum. situation, I invited other players of my realm to do the same, if you can't even substantiate claims that there is a clan [...]

NoblesseChevaleresque, can you explain how your realm works like clockwork with almost no in-game communication? The emphasis is on almost. Obviously the OOG communication does not refer to the forums and you know this.

Have you even identified who is in this clan? Or if there even is a Clan? I've pointed this out before, if there is a clan, I don't know about them, if there is a clan, they aren't running Aurvandil, if there is a clan, they they don't override any In character processes.

This is fair. Those who are being complained about should of course be identified and more importantly be invited to put up a defence in the forum. Investigations have concluded that there is a clan and as it is not the entire realm members of both Aurvandil and Fontan there will naturally be a few who are in the dark.

In the interest of full disclosure, we also found that the alleged clan is not acting aggressively exclusive. We have seen characters join the realm and be welcome. However, to the best of our knowledge, they are not integrated into the alledged clan and receive none of the suspected OOG communications.

This is what the Magistrates need to focus on. If not aggressively exclusive then how detrimental it is to the game.

Out on another limb, if some of the Magistrates are the accusers in this situation would they be taken out of the council who'll make the final decision? Or will Tom himself do so? I don't believe it would be fair to include the Magistrates who made the accusations as they would have an unbiased opinion.

Another fair point. It is clear from other threads that one or two Magistrates may certainly be biased and in my opinion should recuse themselves regardless of whether they have a character (or not) in the realms mentioned or at war with the realms mentioned.

[Penchant]

Answering specifically to the does it harm or hurt the game? Several things I would say it helps. The bankers/wealthy being pro-active by finding others who have a small unit and give them gold without asking is good as it helps out players who are busy and can't ask or think it would be wrong of them to just ask for gold (helps out the lower class of the realm who also don't get as much info due to being the low knight I see as a good.) The war of Aurvandil-Madina I see as good since except for the Lurias and the new Teran Kabrinskia war there hadn't been much on all the continent.

[Kellaine]

I respectfully request that you back that up with a list of players. I believe you're counting every noble who's ever been in both Aurvandil and Fontan, plus their family members in Fontan. Keep in mind that both realms have many players.

If this was a real clan invasion, those numbers would be 22 characters / 11 players.

Actually I did that... but it was to Tom who I assume gave them to the Dev team.  I am not sure if it would be appropriate to list them here unless Tom or a Magistrate tells me to. Sorry

[Vellos]

Actually I did that... but it was to Tom who I assume gave them to the Dev team.  I am not sure if it would be appropriate to list them here unless Tom or a Magistrate tells me to. Sorry

The Magistrates have several lists that we have thus far not elected to make public, as we have no desire to possibly blacken someone's OOC reputation without discerning more details about the case.

Another fair point. It is clear from other threads that one or two Magistrates may certainly be biased and in my opinion should recuse themselves regardless of whether they have a character (or not) in the realms mentioned or at war with the realms mentioned.

If you think so, the Backroom is the place for that discussion, not the case thread, as we have gone over many, many times.

[Ketchum]

Answering specifically to the does it harm or hurt the game? Several things I would say it helps. The bankers/wealthy being pro-active by finding others who have a small unit and give them gold without asking is good as it helps out players who are busy and can't ask or think it would be wrong of them to just ask for gold (helps out the lower class of the realm who also don't get as much info due to being the low knight I see as a good.) The war of Aurvandil-Madina I see as good since except for the Lurias and the new Teran Kabrinskia war there hadn't been much on all the continent.

Penchant, you have a misconception here about the Banker :o

My character Brock is Fontan Banker and he is no rich if 50-70 gold is the average. Please explain your definition of rich. Not all Bankers are rich, as I no play my character to be the evil scheming Banker who eat gold like he eating food  :P Even Fontan Trader do not give my Banker character a slice of their profit although Brock helps them find sources of food trading income :)

Perhaps we are too quick to jump the gun on clannies in Fontan. Either my character awareness there is pretty bad there or we have some mind confusion on how clannies is defined.

1) If there are clannies as what some of us say, why not teleport those 12 nobles who are pointed to join Fontan in the last 2 weeks? Why teleport randomly? For all it worth, you may cause those innocent characters to leave the game just because of a select few do not have their way.

2) If we measure clannie activity by IC/IG messages, there are 50++ messages flying around in Fontan nowadays.

3) If we measure clannies activity by unexplained gold income, I believe I tried my best to explain in my Fontan posts earlier. We conduct looting on Westmoor land, wealthy ones(even the average income Banker who can pass only 50 gold instead of 100 gold) pass gold to those who need gold.

4) If we measure clannies activity by military strength CS rising without IG explanation, I believe I have answered sufficiently as well. Fontan army has been training since the conclusion of the great war with Sirion and Westmoor. The CeaseFire with Westmoor is a prelude to things to come, to IG events. IC-wise, we have seen how Fontan people see Westmoor refusal to compensate for the damage done to Krimml city, Oberndorf, etc. IC-wise, we also have seen how Westmoor people think of the discussion. My guess is Westmoor is caught planting flower when its army should be ready. Westmoor lost a slice of their army strength by wasting the 13K CS against Fontan 19K CS. Coupled with IG demise of Ibladesh and people like joining a realm because of war(game retention, people hate boring realm), there you have all the answers needed.

Mod: You can remove my post if you find my this post has nothing to add on 8)

[Penchant]

I said banker with wealthy as I thought there was a banker likely of Aurvandil saying they gave gold without in game communication because they saw others needing it and had some to spare. Perhaps I misread and it was only a duke of one of the realms, either way I am not saying all bankers are wealthy just that the banker i thought i read about and other wealthy of the realm move gold around because of noticing small units which I see as a good thing for the game as its great for a newbie or other player who hasn't done much in the realm to get them involved. I myself when I had an excess of gold with one of my characters just looked for some players who needed the gold as I am rather against ever paying property or wealth taxes or whatever they are so I always give some around when in excess without others asking me and it makes whoever I give the gold to happier and thus more willing to get involved in discussions too.

[Ketchum]

I said banker with wealthy as I thought there was a banker likely of Aurvandil saying they gave gold without in game communication because they saw others needing it and had some to spare. Perhaps I misread and it was only a duke of one of the realms, either way I am not saying all bankers are wealthy just that the banker i thought i read about and other wealthy of the realm move gold around because of noticing small units which I see as a good thing for the game as its great for a newbie or other player who hasn't done much in the realm to get them involved. I myself when I had an excess of gold with one of my characters just looked for some players who needed the gold as I am rather against ever paying property or wealth taxes or whatever they are so I always give some around when in excess without others asking me and it makes whoever I give the gold to happier and thus more willing to get involved in discussions too.

Thanks Penchant for explaining :)

Another thing to add on to military activity as a kind of measurement.

Zakilevo has pointed out, which I embarrassingly left out. Many of our military figures have been in Fontan for years, since the great war with Sirion. If they are clannie, I say If, does that mean clannie have been around in Fontan for years?? :o

[Geronus]

Perhaps it would be helpful to remove the specifics from consideration. Forget the names Fontan and Aurvandil.

Is the behavior that has been described by Tom and Indirik a violation of the social contract, specifically the fair play clause?

Technically, that's the only thing that matters at the moment.

[Fury]

The Magistrates have several lists that we have thus far not elected to make public, as we have no desire to possibly blacken someone's OOC reputation without discerning more details about the case.

Basic principle of law, an accused has a chance to defend himself. You don't try him in the backroom without him even knowing he was on trial.[/quote]

If you think so, the Backroom is the place for that discussion, not the case thread, as we have gone over many, many times.

A question was raised in open court on recusal - should I answer him in the backroom where it cannot reach him? The parts of the forum I am referring to are open to all. I raise nothing hidden. And yes, I do think so. It is painfully obvious. A discussion is hardly necessary. But if you wish to in the backroom by all means.

[Velax]

Something else to consider. Many of the non-clanners in Arcachon on FEI (maybe a dozen or so) rebelled against the clan group (20-25 nobles, I believe) and, thanks to good timing and a bit of deception, they won. The clanners then protested out the new ruler and judge not once, but three times (the non-clanners kept rebelling, the clanners kept protesting). I don't know about you guys, but I have never seen anyone protested out ever, let alone two council positions, repeatedly, in a realm of 40+ nobles, often within hours of their being appointed. I'd say that's "affecting the enjoyment of others" if anything is.

[Vellos]

Something else to consider. Many of the non-clanners in Arcachon on FEI (maybe a dozen or so) rebelled against the clan group (20-25 nobles, I believe) and, thanks to good timing and a bit of deception, they won. The clanners then protested out the new ruler and judge not once, but three times (the non-clanners kept rebelling, the clanners kept protesting). I don't know about you guys, but I have never seen anyone protested out ever, let alone two council positions, repeatedly, in a realm of 40+ nobles, often within hours of their being appointed. I'd say that's "affecting the enjoyment of others" if anything is.

Good point; I am semi-familiar with the facts in that situation, but had forgotten that it was some of the same players.

[^ban^]

stuff

None of this matters because the existence or non-existence of a clan (for lack of a better word) is not the issue, or even a question: Existence was already determined before this complaint was raised.

Basic principle of law, an accused has a chance to defend himself. You don't try him in the backroom without him even knowing he was on trial.
A question was raised in open court on recusal - should I answer him in the backroom where it cannot reach him? The parts of the forum I am referring to are open to all. I raise nothing hidden. And yes, I do think so. It is painfully obvious. A discussion is hardly necessary. But if you wish to in the backroom by all means.

Those with a stake in the outcome of this case have been notified and, therefore, have the option and ability to influence this case. At this point, the only benefit to making any list of suspects public is blackening their reputation.

[Dante Silverfire]

Something else to consider. Many of the non-clanners in Arcachon on FEI (maybe a dozen or so) rebelled against the clan group (20-25 nobles, I believe) and, thanks to good timing and a bit of deception, they won. The clanners then protested out the new ruler and judge not once, but three times (the non-clanners kept rebelling, the clanners kept protesting). I don't know about you guys, but I have never seen anyone protested out ever, let alone two council positions, repeatedly, in a realm of 40+ nobles, often within hours of their being appointed. I'd say that's "affecting the enjoyment of others" if anything is.

This is a good point, however since it has not yet occurred in these cases I'm not sure it can be applied. So long as the clanners aren't actively excluding others from gameplay or denying them the ability to act then I don't believe they are violating the fair play terms of the contract. I've stated in more detail my arguments in the last post of the third page.

Also, I have seen protestation used in the past on my own characters. (having it succeed)