Seeking Active Players interested in Military Dominance

[Anaris]

"FEI is so BORING!"

Well, we have 15 active players who have suddenly developed an interest in FEI...

I never said the FEI was boring. I've been having a grand old time, and I suspect Morningstar has, too.

As with much of BattleMaster, what you get out of it is proportional to what you put in—not just in terms of time, but thought and caring.

[Dante Silverfire]

This sort of thing would, indeed, be deeply unbalancing to the entire Far East, which really seems to me to miss the whole point of the clan discussion in the first place—that is, the real problem with clans is not so much that the people in them break the rules by their clan activities, but that clans are bad for the game because they unbalance it.

Okay, I agree with you in principle. However, I disagree with the way you're perceiving this case.

I believe clans are bad if they unbalance the game by their clan activities in and of themselves. But I don't think what I am proposing is a problem if it unbalances the game, purely because we added more nobles to an island. This statement seems completely counter active to everything I've heard about BM lacking players to put nobles on islands.

There are players with a spare character who could put that character on FEI. Am I hearing it is a bad thing to add characters to an island that needs them?

What if through massive personal marketing I managed to get 100 new characters made on FEI within the next month. (Some new players, some old players making new chars). Would this unbalance the island? Absolutely. Is that a bad thing for the game? Absolutely not. I would even argue its a great thing for the game.

One of the biggest problems with retention is that things grow stale over time and power blocs become immovable. Nothing changes, no one moves, there becomes no mobility in the hierachial structure. Well it sounds to me like the main reason against us adding new characters to FEI, is that it may cause more mobility to occur on the island. And God forbid new wars break out, or new realms are made. That would just be completely terrible to the game atmosphere.

Short version: Game balance = important, individual realm balance = less important. (Some will be stronger than others, and shaking things up every once in a while adds mobility and fun to the game. )

[Anaris]

Short version: Game balance = important, individual realm balance = less important. (Some will be stronger than others, and shaking things up every once in a while adds mobility and fun to the game. )

And this, I completely disagree with.

No, it would be just fine if 15 active players had spare character slots they wanted to dedicate to characters on the FEI. It would be fine if they wanted to continue to chat about their experiences there, swap stories, tell about the pluses and minuses of the various realms they were in, and engage in a little friendly smack-talk before and after important (or unimportant! ) battles. Not only do I think that would be no problem, I think it would be bloody fantastic. It would go a long way towards dispelling the feeling that so many people get that the players' of their characters' enemies should also be their enemies.

What would not be fine is dropping 15 characters into one realm and using them to completely change the military situation on the continent for purely OOC reasons. Especially not if the reason is just to prove a point.

Think about how that feels for the people who are actually dedicated to characters on the continent: they either have a bunch of people show up in their enemy's realm, proceed to utterly destroy them in the war, and then vastly expand the reach of a realm that was, until then, relatively weak and unimportant—or, worse, have their own realm co-opted by these people, who are a voting bloc strong enough to swing any election to whatever candidate they favor, lose much of their realm identity, have any ongoing role-plays disrupted, their realm culture diluted or destroyed, and all their plans scattered to merry hell.

And then, when the people have proved their point, they lose interest and leave, and the realm that got taken over simply implodes, with its leadership gone (they controlled the voting, after all), a good chunk of its lords gone, and the artificial backbone ripped out of its military.

[GoldPanda]

It would go a long way towards dispelling the feeling that so many people get that the players' of their characters' enemies should also be their enemies.

Is that how things work on FEI? People can't tell the difference between IC and OOC? Whatever happened to FEI being the "serious roleplaying" island?

I have not seen much OOC hatred between players from enemy realms, on AT, EC, or Dwilight. Some players in Fontan had gotten warnings for OOC attacks, but that's really a case of players who hate each other and still trying to play in the same realm.

[Anaris]

Is that how things work on FEI? People can't tell the difference between IC and OOC?

I was speaking in general terms, because that's what tends to happen throughout BattleMaster, on all islands. It's just part of human nature.

Whatever happened to FEI being the "serious roleplaying" island?

That designation was officially removed years ago. The only continent with any kind of special designation as far as conduct is Dwilight with SMA.

I have not seen much OOC hatred between players from enemy realms, on AT, EC, or Dwilight. Some players in Fontan had gotten warnings for OOC attacks, but that's really a case of players who hate each other and still trying to play in the same realm.

You haven't seen the ranting and insults in the clan threads? You haven't seen what people in realms CE has destroyed say about CE—or what CE, in turn, says about them?

People have tribe mentalities. Choosing to join separate realms, but maintain friendly, active contact via the forums can break the natural "us vs them" impulses we all have and push BattleMaster back towards playing like friends around the table.

[Dante Silverfire]

What would not be fine is dropping 15 characters into one realm and using them to completely change the military situation on the continent for purely OOC reasons. Especially not if the reason is just to prove a point.

Think about how that feels for the people who are actually dedicated to characters on the continent:

Seriously?

The most active players in this game, are usually the ones who are the ones most dedicated to their characters as well. I am certain that if I make a character with this, that I will be 100% dedicated to that character and still RP'ing him just like any other. Is it a problem then if I choose to RP this character as a string military brat, unlike many of my others who are political maniacs?

Also, this is NOT to simply prove a point. If it was to prove a point, I would have stopped encouraging discussion of this as soon as Tom had read the post. This is and was from the beginning a legitimate idea.

Again, we'll have plenty of IC reasons for things once it is actually begun, but the only OOC connection is knowing that other players are interested in joining the same realm from the beginning.

I don't know how many times I've been told that it doesn't matter if my IC plans are ruined by other characters. That's part of the game, that's part of the fun of adapting to what others do and engaging in a mutual gaming experience. Will everyone be happy with the way things turn out? Probably not, but they'll also have a lot more interesting things happening in FEI while this goes on. There is also no reason that it needs to stop at any point.

Let's say we add 15 new characters to realm X on FEI. Realm X is now much stronger militarily. However, realm X could quickly be destroyed if it starts winning wars right away, because all the other realms immediately team up on it. Or, realm X could take over some more land, and then grow stronger. Then some greedy duke decides to secede and make a new realm. Perhaps 3 new realms are spawned, and FEI actually starts looking like a more engaging island again.

I even have IC reasons to go to FEI, multiple in fact, family contacts among some of these other players whom I could send a young noble to, to help out their cause if I wanted to. I'm sure nearly every other interested candidate has an IC reason they could use as well. Does that change anything? I say it shouldn't, which means that it doesn't matter from the beginning.

[Masochist]

Seriously?

The most active players in this game, are usually the ones who are the ones most dedicated to their characters as well. I am certain that if I make a character with this, that I will be 100% dedicated to that character and still RP'ing him just like any other. Is it a problem then if I choose to RP this character as a string military brat, unlike many of my others who are political maniacs?

Made me lol because of

What would not be fine is dropping 15 characters into one realm and using them to completely change the military situation on the continent for purely OOC reasons. Especially not if the reason is just to prove a point.

"why cant I RP a military brat?"

has nothing to do with

"putting 15 characters (OOCly) into a realm to change things with an OOC goal/purpose"

as for the military brat thing?

By all means! I know my character I am playing I am RPing out as an expansionist/militaristic mindset type.

He wants a Sparta style society

[Dante Silverfire]

Made me lol because of


"why cant I RP a military brat?"

has nothing to do with

"putting 15 characters (OOCly) into a realm to change things with an OOC goal/purpose"

Did you read the rest of my message where I explained that there are IC reasons for moving characters there?

[Masochist]

I sure did...but how does that change the OOC premise of such a thing?

Giving it an RP coating doesn't change that at its core its still the OOC issue/action of bolstering a single place in a clan like nature to create a powerhouse military.

That said...if you can pull it off RPly...this thread shouldn't really exist...you should be in game RPing it out and coordinating things in game and in a legitimate manner.

[Dante Silverfire]

I sure did...but how does that change the OOC premise of such a thing?

Giving it an RP coating doesn't change that at its core its still the OOC issue/action of bolstering a single place in a clan like nature to create a powerhouse military.

That said...if you can pull it off RPly...this thread shouldn't really exist...you should be in game RPing it out and coordinating things in game and in a legitimate manner.

Well, seeing as what I've proposed has been given the OK as within the rules of the game, giving it an RP coating is exactly the way to go about this. I mean, when an IC friend asks for religious zealots, I must help him...

[Anaris]

The most active players in this game, are usually the ones who are the ones most dedicated to their characters as well. I am certain that if I make a character with this, that I will be 100% dedicated to that character and still RP'ing him just like any other. Is it a problem then if I choose to RP this character as a string military brat, unlike many of my others who are political maniacs?

No, that is not a problem at all.  As has been said, so many times that I feel like I ought to be hitting you over the head with a stack of papers with the posts written on them, none of the problem here is about individual actions. It's about the aggregate.

Also, this is NOT to simply prove a point. If it was to prove a point, I would have stopped encouraging discussion of this as soon as Tom had read the post. This is and was from the beginning a legitimate idea.

No, it's to prove a point. It's to prove that you can make a legitimate "forum clan" that has all the benefits of a regular clan militarily, without the danger of getting mass-deported or otherwise punished. It may also be because you think being part of a clan like that would be fun, but the primary reason was, and still is, to prove the point.

Again, we'll have plenty of IC reasons for things once it is actually begun, but the only OOC connection is knowing that other players are interested in joining the same realm from the beginning.

It's really hard to take seriously any talk of "IC reasons" when it's plainly obvious—and, indeed, the entire point—that this endeavor was organized OOC, for OOC reasons.

Any "IC reasons" you and the others come up with will be nothing more than a thin excuse for why you want to take over a realm and destroy its structure and culture for your own ends.

I don't know how many times I've been told that it doesn't matter if my IC plans are ruined by other characters. That's part of the game, that's part of the fun of adapting to what others do and engaging in a mutual gaming experience. Will everyone be happy with the way things turn out? Probably not, but they'll also have a lot more interesting things happening in FEI while this goes on. There is also no reason that it needs to stop at any point.

I don't mind too much if my IC plans are ruined by other characters, either. What I do mind is if they're ruined by a completely OOC plan that just happens to land in my realm—or gets urged to come to my realm by the people on the other side of the IC table.

Let's say we add 15 new characters to realm X on FEI. Realm X is now much stronger militarily. However, realm X could quickly be destroyed if it starts winning wars right away, because all the other realms immediately team up on it. Or, realm X could take over some more land, and then grow stronger. Then some greedy duke decides to secede and make a new realm. Perhaps 3 new realms are spawned, and FEI actually starts looking like a more engaging island again.

Or, as more usually happens, the continent is caught off guard, the realm's enemies lose half their regions in the first surprising onslaught, and the other realms on the continent, seeing that the realm that was joined is powerful, decide to join the winning side lest they end up getting hurt, too. Then either the "forum clan", having done what it came to do, gets bored and leaves, as I said earlier, or they decide to stick around and hang onto the power they've gained. The 3-way secession that was talked about earlier gets put off and put off, because really, you need more people to support that, and there are threatening noises coming from the south...

...and before you know it, a year has passed, and the FEI is in complete stagnation because everyone's afraid to declare war first. Because they know that whoever does will get the clan realm jumping on them and slaughtering them.

Which of those sounds like the situation that would be more likely to actually happen in the BM you and I both play in? Rather than the Ideal World BM we'd love to have?

I even have IC reasons to go to FEI, multiple in fact, family contacts among some of these other players whom I could send a young noble to, to help out their cause if I wanted to. I'm sure nearly every other interested candidate has an IC reason they could use as well. Does that change anything? I say it shouldn't, which means that it doesn't matter from the beginning.

Again, my objection has nothing to do with what your character does. Come to the FEI, do whatever you want, for whatever reasons you want, by yourself. It's only when you get 15 people all doing the same things for OOC reasons that it becomes a problem.

[Draco Tanos]

Where's the Like button for Anaris's post?

I've had characters go to FEI, not to gain power in realms or smash other kingdoms, but rather as missionaries to spread their Faith. And has nothing to do with this concept.

Sucks they couldn't remain priests when immigrating, but I'll make do.

[Foundation]

Well, my free noble slot is now gone.  I'll be playing alongside Zak in Perdan, sorry. :-/

[Penchant]

One thing I would like to say that Anaris has ignored is by talking like they plan on taking over the realm is that its not true. You say they will cheat in elections so they all get lord spots but it was already said that they will roleplay seperately and not take over the realm but just try to make a really good army in the realm they have chosen. Also I do understand Anaris's point of adding 15 characters to one realm in the Far East would be a bad idea due to the fact you are unbalancing the entire continent unless you join seperate realms. One way to make the Far East more interesting could be to have a couple of the military dominance players to join each realm and start making big wars happen.

[Anaris]

One thing I would like to say that Anaris has ignored is by talking like they plan on taking over the realm is that its not true. You say they will cheat in elections so they all get lord spots but it was already said that they will roleplay seperately and not take over the realm but just try to make a really good army in the realm they have chosen.

I am skeptical about this. Not so much about intentions, but about practicalities and realities. As I've mentioned, humans tend to think tribally, and the "forum clan" would feel more like "us" than the rest of the realm, and thus there would be a natural tendency to prefer them over others for any kind of choice where one has to take sides.

Also I do understand Anaris's point of adding 15 characters to one realm in the Far East would be a bad idea due to the fact you are unbalancing the entire continent unless you join seperate realms. One way to make the Far East more interesting could be to have a couple of the military dominance players to join each realm and start making big wars happen.

I think that this would be a much more interesting and fascinating experiment.

We know more or less what happens when you drop a dozen or so active, ambitious, militarily-inclined nobles into a realm at war. Wouldn't it be much more fun to see what would happen if you tried something no one has ever tried before?

(I mean, obviously it's less fun if what you want to do is prove a point to Tom, or guarantee that you'll be on the winning side of any given war, or even guarantee yourself a voting bloc. But since none of those are supposed to be what the point is...)