polearms

[fodder]

well.. not entirely certain if this belongs to the background board or not... because it concerns the use of infantry polearms in japan.. presumably in sengoku, though one would imagine it's been like that well before and after

basically, according to the comic called "sengoku" by hideki miya!@#$a... polearm formations don't poke at each other. then lift up their polearms and then whip it down (in a synchronised manner) to smack the other side. and apparently is based on quotes from old texts.

surely they can't be the odd ones out in the whole wide world.. in the thousands of years of polearm usage?

[Gustav Kuriga]

depends on what polearms we are are talking about, because that covers a wide variety. There's the classic spear, the halberd which is a combination of spear and ax, and the naginata of japan which is a sword on a stick.

[fodder]

the most common ones in the hands of common troops.. yari in the case of japan... seems to have a long blade...

are halberds used in formation to chop things... or is the chopping just a secondary function to poking?

[Draco Tanos]

Probably depends on what they were opposing.

[fodder]

against other infantry with same weapons?

isn't it faster to poke than lift and drop? (even if it's lifted well before hand)

[Gustav Kuriga]

Faster? Yes. More effective? Depends.

[Chenier]

The type of polearm and the type of encounter would indeed, I suppose, determine all of that.

[De-Legro]

A prominent use of the halberd was in the "pike push". It was commonly used as a supplemental weapon in pike formations where the goal was to use the halberd to strike the opposing forces pikes and either cut them or tangle them, allowing your own pikes to be more effective. They were also one of the close combat weapons favoured by Swiss pikemen when pikes were no longer effective.

Interestingly although in the pike push their role was to obstruct and damage the enemy pike, references refer to the fact the spike was refined to allow it to better deal with pikes. I'm not entirely what prompted this.

[fodder]

interestingly... i'm told that instead of a formation (like phalanx/pike square), the peasant armies in japan are more into 1 on 1 combat... where spanking.. so to speak... with the long spear is "easier" than thrusting...

because their armies are really just a bunch of peasants who farm most of the year and war in the other seasons.. (plus some samurai)... their phalanx/formation would be useless...

beats me if it's true or not. would have thought medieval armies aren't all that different?

[De-Legro]

interestingly... i'm told that instead of a formation (like phalanx/pike square), the peasant armies in japan are more into 1 on 1 combat... where spanking.. so to speak... with the long spear is "easier" than thrusting...

because their armies are really just a bunch of peasants who farm most of the year and war in the other seasons.. (plus some samurai)... their phalanx/formation would be useless...

beats me if it's true or not. would have thought medieval armies aren't all that different?

That could be the reason. However it is more likely that they simply placed a great emphasis on 1 v 1 combat for honor purposes, I'm pretty sure this was true of the samurai. This was also true throughout Europe in early ages, Melee combat had lots of aspects of ad hoc challenges and 1 v 1 combat. The prevailing thought was it displayed the skill and bravery of the individual warriors. My own military training placed great emphasis on the difference between a warrior and a solider, and it basically boiled down to solider's fighting together and placing the unit above all, where warriors largely fight on their own and place their own pride and honor as the priority.

[fodder]

i do agree with the bit about displaying bravery/skill... (i imagine so they - the peasants.. get noticed and promoted into joining the samurai gravy train)

and according to the comic... honor in sengoku, as in serving only one master, etc, is over-rated. it's a concept more prevalent in the following edo/meiji period (or i guess.. well before sengoku)..

it quoted from various sources (eh.. translated from jp->cn->en.. so something is probably lost somewhere):

Tōdō Takatora
"if you haven't served 7 different lords, you ain't no samurai" (eh.. he served 7 of them..)

Asakura Norikage
"call it beastly/animalistic if you want.. but victory is the basis of being a samurai"

ie... loyalty to one's liege is over-rated...  staying alive with whatever means is more important is being truer to bushido


quite interesting, his stuff. mini ice age... caused shortage of food, creating conflict (grabbing food from next door), bringing about rise of financial services (bartering with coinage... wealth based on coinage than food). lower "rank" nobles booting out higher rank ones and taking their place, etc giving rise to sengoku daiymos... siblings/families warring with each other upon death of family head to become the new head.

[De-Legro]

i do agree with the bit about displaying bravery/skill... (i imagine so they - the peasants.. get noticed and promoted into joining the samurai gravy train)

and according to the comic... honor in sengoku, as in serving only one master, etc, is over-rated. it's a concept more prevalent in the following edo/meiji period (or i guess.. well before sengoku)..

it quoted from various sources (eh.. translated from jp->cn->en.. so something is probably lost somewhere):

Tōdō Takatora
"if you haven't served 7 different lords, you ain't no samurai" (eh.. he served 7 of them..)

Asakura Norikage
"call it beastly/animalistic if you want.. but victory is the basis of being a samurai"

ie... loyalty to one's liege is over-rated...  staying alive with whatever means is more important is being truer to bushido


quite interesting, his stuff. mini ice age... caused shortage of food, creating conflict (grabbing food from next door), bringing about rise of financial services (bartering with coinage... wealth based on coinage than food). lower "rank" nobles booting out higher rank ones and taking their place, etc giving rise to sengoku daiymos... siblings/families warring with each other upon death of family head to become the new head.

Much the same as the western concept of chivalry, the concept of Samurai being educated cultural and artistic comes from later ages.

[OFaolain]

Much the same as the western concept of chivalry, the concept of Samurai being educated cultural and artistic comes from later ages.

Yup; you can't have your competent lieutenants gut themselves in wartime every time you lose a battle.  During 200 years of (relative) stability, it's a different story.  Romanticism of Bushido was an Edo period contruct, IIRC.

As for yari, there are a bunch of different kinds (it just means "spear"), many of which do have a cutting edge (some of which do not) and have blades ranging anywhere from several centimeters to several feet.  The yari also isn't the only polearm (though by far the most common for your average footman during sengoku); there's also the naginata, which is a cutting weapon (as Gustav said, it's basically a katana-on-a-stick).