Mocking the Magistrate decision

[Anaris]

That's not true. He did not entirely ignore it. He did, however, not go the whole nine yards.

But he's being made out like someone who stood up in the marketplace, lowered his pants and pointed his behind in the general direction of the magistrates, which is not what he did. His messages seem respectful, though I agree he doesn't seem to understand some things about what was expected from him.

As the formulation in the verdict was fairly soft ("we expect [...] insofar as he is able [...]") I can in part sympathise with him. However, he does seem to take things lightly, which is something the game invites you to do, being casual-friendly and all. Most people here seem to take things way, way too seriously. And play to win more than to have fun.

If we want the Magistrates to be taken seriously, then we need to take them seriously.

If we want exploitation of bugs to be taken seriously, then we need to take it seriously.

If, however, we want to encourage people to take the game as meaning nothing, then by all means, be lenient with people who "take lightly" the directives of the group that is intended to replace the Titans as the primary method of the enforcement of the rules in BattleMaster.

In the past, Tom, I've seen you throw lightning bolts for less disrespect than this player is showing. I think that might be a little over the top here, but I think that brushing it off as the guy "taking it lightly", and saying that those who want to see the actual rules followed and the actual Magistrate verdict enforced are "taking things too seriously," is extremely wrongheaded and would set a very dangerous precedent.

[Gustav Kuriga]

If we want the Magistrates to be taken seriously, then we need to take them seriously.

If we want exploitation of bugs to be taken seriously, then we need to take it seriously.

If, however, we want to encourage people to take the game as meaning nothing, then by all means, be lenient with people who "take lightly" the directives of the group that is intended to replace the Titans as the primary method of the enforcement of the rules in BattleMaster.

In the past, Tom, I've seen you throw lightning bolts for less disrespect than this player is showing. I think that might be a little over the top here, but I think that brushing it off as the guy "taking it lightly", and saying that those who want to see the actual rules followed and the actual Magistrate verdict enforced are "taking things too seriously," is extremely wrongheaded and would set a very dangerous precedent.

I would have to agree with Anaris here. There is a difference between playing the game in a light-weight manner, and taking the rules lightly. If someone is playing monopoly with me, and takes an extra bit of money each time he goes around GO, I'm not going to just let it pass. That's breaking the the spirit and rules of the game.

[Tom]

Strawman. Nobody is taking extra money every turn.

I don't see anyone openly disrespecting the magistrates, either. Disrespect reads differently.

Again, I'm not defending anyone, I am trying to get everyone to cool down and look at the facts, not at their exaggerated image.

[Anaris]

Strawman. Nobody is taking extra money every turn.

It was an analogy, Tom. It was intended to illustrate that "taking the game lightly" doesn't always mean "just enjoying having fun with friends;" it can mean "being a jerk because dude, you guys need to lighten up about these "rules" you're so uptight about!"

I don't see anyone openly disrespecting the magistrates, either. Disrespect reads differently.

There's deliberate, open disrespect (which is what you're talking about), and then there's a simple lack of respect (which is what I'm talking about).

The former is more troubling, certainly, but the latter is still a problem. If people do not take the Magistrates seriously, and do not respect them, then they will end up being useless for enforcing the rules without overly harsh punishments—which, in my experience, can lead people to respect them less, even as they fear them more.

Just so we're on the same page, let me lay out the way I see the situation briefly:

The bug occurs, and the character remains Lord of the enemy region.
He flips it back to Libero Empire with the militia.
The Magistrate decision instructs him to disband the militia.
He begins disbanding the militia, runs out of money and time to do so, and heads back to the capital to get more.
The realm reinforces the militia, to ensure that the region isn't completely defenseless when the Summerdale militia is disbanded.
(All seems OK to me up to this point.)
The Lord returns and disbands a little more militia, then decides "that should be enough", and roleplays that the rest of the militia decided to abandon their original realm and fight for Libero Empire (turning it into IC propaganda, declaring that they did it because Summerdale was oppressive, and Libero gave more freedom).
The Lord then takes the money that could have gone to disbanding the rest of the militia and instead recruits a large unit of special forces.

So not only did he just decide, on his own, not to comply with the Magistrates' ruling, but he turned it into an opportunity to spout some propaganda. He says he "ran out of funds," but had plenty to recruit himself a nice unit.

This, to me, shows a basic lack of respect for the Magistrates' authority, and while clearly not a deliberate attempt to mock them, it nonetheless should not be allowed to stand if we want the Magistrates to be seen as a true enforcement body.

[Marlboro]

So not only did he just decide, on his own, not to comply with the Magistrates' ruling, but he turned it into an opportunity to spout some propaganda. He says he "ran out of funds," but had plenty to recruit himself a nice unit.

This, to me, shows a basic lack of respect for the Magistrates' authority, and while clearly not a deliberate attempt to mock them, it nonetheless should not be allowed to stand if we want the Magistrates to be seen as a true enforcement body.

His RP seems to be in direct response to someone else's RP accusing him of witchcraft. I don't see anything wrong with it in and of itself, as the militia are still around IG and must be acknowledged until they're gone.

The real problem is that no clear deadline was set for his compliance, nor even a total consensus on what the Magistrate ruling actually meant. This shouldn't even be a trial, though, as it's just serving as another vehicle to call him out as a cheater and 'sploiter. If the Magistrates want to enforce their decision based on an arbitrary amount of time then they could easily handle it behind closed doors, otherwise it looks like they're caving in to a vocal minority if they actually do vote to lock his account.

[Anaris]

His RP seems to be in direct response to someone else's RP accusing him of witchcraft. I don't see anything wrong with it in and of itself, as the militia are still around IG and must be acknowledged until they're gone.

Ah, I didn't realize that was what was meant. In that case, it's not as bad as I had thought.

The real problem is that no clear deadline was set for his compliance, nor even a total consensus on what the Magistrate ruling actually meant.

I think there's a general agreement that the ruling, overall, was poorly handled and poorly worded, at best.

This shouldn't even be a trial, though, as it's just serving as another vehicle to call him out as a cheater and 'sploiter. If the Magistrates want to enforce their decision based on an arbitrary amount of time then they could easily handle it behind closed doors, otherwise it looks like they're caving in to a vocal minority if they actually do vote to lock his account.

Giving a specific deadline would have been irresponsible, as it would have been impossible for the Magistrates to know how fast he could have been expected to carry out the disbanding. However, given the amount of time that has passed, what else he has done in the interim, and his own words in this thread, it seems clear that he has decided not to disband the rest of the militia.  I cannot see any reasonable interpretation of the Magistrates' ruling that would permit that; therefore, unless he repents and finishes the disbanding of the militia post-haste, I believe it is fully appropriate to proceed with locking his account.

Furthermore (and this is just my personal opinion), I would say that an appropriate response from the Magistrates would be to ask the devs to simply delete all the militia in the region. I believe that this would send the right sort of message, and let the punishment fit the crime.

[Indirik]

I cannot see any reasonable interpretation of the Magistrates' ruling that would permit that; therefore, unless he repents and finishes the disbanding of the militia post-haste, I believe it is fully appropriate to proceed with locking his account.

Why bother messing around? He shouldn't have had the lordship in the first place, and he's decided and publicly stated that he's not going to follow the judgment. After that last battle, chances are that most of the militia are already dead, so he can't disband them, or enough are gone that disbanding them would be meaningless. He shouldn't have the lordship, so just kick him out of his position and get this case over with. The longer this drags on, the more this whole situation becomes a public spectacle, a black eye for the Magistrates, and a sore spot for everyone involved.

[Zakilevo]

Why bother messing around? He shouldn't have had the lordship in the first place, and he's decided and publicly stated that he's not going to follow the judgment. After that last battle, chances are that most of the militia are already dead, so he can't disband them, or enough are gone that disbanding them would be meaningless. He shouldn't have the lordship, so just kick him out of his position and get this case over with. The longer this drags on, the more this whole situation becomes a public spectacle, a black eye for the Magistrates, and a sore spot for everyone involved.

Can't agree more. His action is affecting the entire war. Well actually his action has already changed the outcome of the war. No point on fixing it now.

[Tom]

Can't agree more. His action is affecting the entire war. Well actually his action has already changed the outcome of the war. No point on fixing it now.

Uh, sorry, but that shouldn't affect the ruling in the slightest.

[Velax]

Why not? Surely there should be a difference in punishment for exploiting a bug/ignoring a Magistrate ruling that, say, gives your region 100 extra food bushels, compared to exploiting a bug/ignoring a Magistrate ruling that changes the outcome of a war.

[Dante Silverfire]

Why not? Surely there should be a difference in punishment for exploiting a bug/ignoring a Magistrate ruling that, say, gives your region 100 extra food bushels, compared to exploiting a bug/ignoring a Magistrate ruling that changes the outcome of a war.

Contempt of the court is given the same punishment in real life (so far as I'm aware) if its done in a minor trial or a major trial.

On the other hand, 2700 static CS, is hardly "changing the outcome of the war." Although, we'll never know for sure, because even with Summerdale having the entire region and its CS, they would still be on the losing end, now that Morek has joined the war.

[Velax]

Just like the other one who complained about "simplistic math", you ignore the context. 2700 CS in some unimportant region? No, not that important. 2700 CS in a vital defensive region, that was then able to be reinforced with other militia and troops while Summerdale waited in vain for the Magistrate's ruling to be carried out? Completely different.

That attack by Summerdale that just failed. If you took away that 2700 militia (plus whatever extra militia Libero had stuffed into the region that they wouldn't have been able to if the bug hadn't happened), gave it and the region back to Summerdale (a switch of 5400 CS total) and then had Morek + Libero attack the region with Summerdale defending. Think there would have been a different outcome to that battle?

[Dante Silverfire]

Just like the other one who complained about "simplistic math", you ignore the context. 2700 CS in some unimportant region? No, not that important. 2700 CS in a vital defensive region, that was then able to be reinforced with other militia and troops while Summerdale waited in vain for the Magistrate's ruling to be carried out? Completely different.

That attack by Summerdale that just failed. If you took away that 2700 militia (plus whatever extra militia Libero had stuffed into the region that they wouldn't have been able to if the bug hadn't happened), gave it and the region back to Summerdale (a switch of 5400 CS total) and then had Morek + Libero attack the region with Summerdale defending. Think there would have been a different outcome to that battle?

To that battle? Perhaps. To the war? No. Absolutely not. Morek and Libero Empire will beat Summerdale in any drawn out war simply due to resource advantage. 2700 CS may make a difference in one battle as you say, but it will not "change the outcome of the war". That is the context of the situation, which I believe you are overlooking.

Yes, this was a bug exploit. But what you've just stated is unreasonable simply because it goes against anything that the Magistrates have control over, or that the game developers have determined is best for the game. We must "play through the bugs" which means that they aren't going to simply return the region to Summerdale. Adding militia to the region was not against the Magistrates decision. Even under full 100% cooperation under the decision, it is highly likely that Libero Empire could have placed 2700 cs worth of their own militia in place to replace the ones that they had to pay (themselves) to disband. So there is a dichotomy here, between what is reasonable and what is unreasonable in these demands.

Should the player have disbanded all of the militia that Summerdale placed, as the Magistrates asked? Yes. However, even if he did that(in a reasonable time period), your war would not have been drastically changed at all.

The Magistrates can choose to move forward however they wish from this, but I completely disagree with the attitude that this player should be essentially burned at the public stake for what has happened, and that it is OKAY for the players of Summerdale to go on this giant witch hunt against the players of Libero for things that are beyond their control. If you want to demand that players play "in the spirit of the game" then, do so yourselves. When I play board games with friends, no I won't cheat or exploit things, but, I also won't constantly demonize my opponents in the game simply for a chance to "win". That is what is happening now as far as I can see from some of the players speaking on behalf of Summerdale. It is sickening. Yes, you may lose a war, so what? It is a game. We play games to have fun. Move on, deal with the issue. Sign peace, then backstab them a month later with a religious takeover of the region, or appear with an army out of nowhere. Or find a new opponent to fight. Or fight to the death. There are many options going forward, and they don't NEED to include massive hate and dislike for your fellow players.

Its a game, the purpose is to have fun, and it is intended to be a lightweight game. Some of us play it more lightweight than others, but that doesn't mean those playing more should be trying more to "win" instead of have fun.

[Velax]

I don't have a character in Summerdale, and don't really care much about either realm outside this case. Don't blame Summerdale players for what non-Summerdale people do.

Would disbanding 2700 CS alone have changed the whole war? No. But it is the compounding of the initial bug's effects that are causing so much damage. A bug gave Libero an extra region and 2700 extra CS. The player that exploited the bug tore down the recruitment centers specifically to hurt Summerdale if they ever got the region back (because what other reason was there to tear down the centers?). The Magistrates told him to disband the militia. Summerdale held off attacking while they waited for that order to be carried out. The player delayed disbanding the militia, deliberately as we see now, and in the meantime more militia has been put in the region. And because Summerdale waited for the Magistrate order to be carried out, Morek had time to join the war and re-inforce the region further. All because this player exploited a bug.

[Marlboro]

And because Summerdale waited for the Magistrate order to be carried out, Morek had time to join the war and re-inforce the region further. All because this player exploited a bug.

You can't pin Summerdale's decision to wait on an OOG verdict on Orris. That is what compounded this issue. I've yet to see any IC justification for it, so I don't see why it's being used as some damning addition to this drama.