Mocking the Magistrate decision

[Dante Silverfire]

I don't have a character in Summerdale, and don't really care much about either realm outside this case. Don't blame Summerdale players for what non-Summerdale people do.

Would disbanding 2700 CS alone have changed the whole war? No. But it is the compounding of the initial bug's effects that are causing so much damage. A bug gave Libero an extra region and 2700 extra CS. The player that exploited the bug tore down the recruitment centers specifically to hurt Summerdale if they ever got the region back (because what other reason was there to tear down the centers?). The Magistrates told him to disband the militia. Summerdale held off attacking while they waited for that order to be carried out. The player delayed disbanding the militia, deliberately as we see now, and in the meantime more militia has been put in the region. And because Summerdale waited for the Magistrate order to be carried out, Morek had time to join the war and re-inforce the region further. All because this player exploited a bug.

The player initially did everything he could to apply by the Magistrates order. That is a fact based upon all evidence that Magistrates have access to. It was only after he returned back to his region (in a reasonable time frame) that he disbanded more of the militia, but then chose (wrongly) to not disband the rest.

Summerdale holding off on attacking the region, I think was an IC military mistake. Even if the order was carried out fully in as an efficient time frame as possible, it would still take time to do so, and Libero would have time to counter act it. The region was weakest when it first switched, and attacking and not waiting goes with the 'play through bugs' sentiment.

The fact still remains though, much of this situation is due to a bug. It was a bug that led to the start of all of this, and this is a testing island. We are playing a game, this is not real life. We do not have money on the results of this battle, or that war. If a character ends up in a worse position, then you make a new storyline or adjust things, you don't go without food for your family for that week. No game should take things as seriously as this case has taken things. A player did something wrong, and there are consequences to that, but this does not need the witch hunt mentality which I've read in some letters here. (Although the IC witch hunt thing was really interesting).

[Brant]

I think, Dante, just as upset as you were about all Libero nobles being lumped in with what happened, I am just as offended at you saying the players of Summerdale are on a witchhunt.  (Though if you mean IC, you're completely right)

Did it change the war in the short term?  Yes. 
Would Morek have entered anyway, probably (That's the reason there was no war in the north for so long, whoever started it would be ganged up on).
Did it change the long term outcome?  Maybe. It's entirely possible that Summerdale could have defended the region against a combined attack.
Are we here to discuss politics or what ifs?  No.


Was the Magistrate's verdict obeyed?  That is what were discussing.  Not whether it was a good verdict, whether obeying it would have changed anything.  If he had disbanded them, Libero (or Orris, if you like) could have easily replaced them.  As stated elsewhere, leaving the region militia less wasn't the intent of the verdict.  That the militia had to be disbanded, then replaced with Orris' time and gold (or donated gold) if he wanted the militia there was.   His player posted that he chose not to do so, even RPing a reason not to.

[Broose]

Summerdale holding off on attacking the region, I think was an IC military mistake. Even if the order was carried out fully in as an efficient time frame as possible, it would still take time to do so, and Libero would have time to counter act it. The region was weakest when it first switched, and attacking and not waiting goes with the 'play through bugs' sentiment.

We weren't just waiting there until the militia was disbanded, our general planned to attack whether it was removed or not the entire time. The time was spent taking over one of Libero's regions and fighting monsters. The plan was never to just wait until the militia was gone and attack.

[Dante Silverfire]

I think, Dante, just as upset as you were about all Libero nobles being lumped in with what happened, I am just as offended at you saying the players of Summerdale are on a witchhunt.  (Though if you mean IC, you're completely right)

I'm sorry for offending you, but that was not the intent. I never said all players of Summerdale, but some, and my comment was more made with regards to "those players arguing on behalf of IC Summerdale interests." I agree with your other points, and that is why I don't feel the IC interests of realms should have anything to do with this. However, I did respond to them, and that is where that statement arose from.

Was the Magistrate's verdict obeyed?  That is what were discussing.  Not whether it was a good verdict, whether obeying it would have changed anything.  If he had disbanded them, Libero (or Orris, if you like) could have easily replaced them.  As stated elsewhere, leaving the region militia less wasn't the intent of the verdict.  That the militia had to be disbanded, then replaced with Orris' time and gold (or donated gold) if he wanted the militia there was.   His player posted that he chose not to do so, even RPing a reason not to.

That shouldn't even be a discussion. It is quite evident that the Magistrates verdict wasn't obeyed.

It was obeyed initially, but was eventually not obeyed to its full extent. If that is what the discussion has been about, then I think that a folly. Everyone can see it wasn't obeyed.

I was only discussing what sort of punishment should be heaped upon a player who views this game (rightfully) as a lightweight game, and a game not real life.

We weren't just waiting there until the militia was disbanded, our general planned to attack whether it was removed or not the entire time. The time was spent taking over one of Libero's regions and fighting monsters. The plan was never to just wait until the militia was gone and attack.

Then everyone stating Summerdale delayed the attack should not be doing so without full knowledge, because ppl respond to that assuming they speak with knowledge of the situation.

[JPierreD]

We must "play through the bugs" which means that they aren't going to simply return the region to Summerdale.

For future cases, I would strongly suggest reviewing this statement.

Fair play means returning the region (and militia) to Summerdale, in the same state the Lord took/kept it, and continue playing. If you decide to "play through" a bug exploit (switching the allegiance of the region back to the Libero Empire), then you have started with the wrong foot, and legitimized a lovely abuse of the game. Anything that follows will be unsatisfactory.

And only disbanding militia seems to be a very poor compromise. You are acknowledging there was the bug exploit, but not committing to fully heal it. Of course the Libero players will drop more militia into their only region bordering Summerdale, with level 1 fortification, if the sentence said nothing about them returning it. It's the sentence's fault to begin with.

(...) and I think that if Summerdale was playing this as a board game with friends themselves they'd've sent some of the new players our way (...)

Seriously? There is no player-central-management, people go to play where they want to. Comparing that to exploiting a bug is ridiculous.

For what it's worth, I don't think the player of Orris has ever intended to hurt anyone with this.  If I understand things right, he views Battlemaster as a game that people shouldn't get worked up about, and that therefore people shouldn't get upset about anything in it (at least, that's my best read on what he's expressed to me).

Looks like a great absolution card for absolutely any circumstance.

I recieved some gold from another player in order to rebuild my forces so i could continue disbanding militia. But the pending attack by our enemies. has left me with the feeling that disbanding them now would be a betrayal of my fellow realmmates.

It is not betraying your realm mates to return what you unlawfully got, unless you consider victory to be above fair play.

[Dante Silverfire]

For future cases, I would strongly suggest reviewing this statement.

Fair play means returning the region (and militia) to Summerdale, in the same state the Lord took/kept it, and continue playing. If you decide to "play through" a bug exploit (switching the allegiance of the region back to the Libero Empire), then you have started with the wrong foot, and legitimized a lovely abuse of the game. Anything that follows will be unsatisfactory.

Perhaps this is correct, but it is not my policy to make. I was just stating Dev/Tom's policy on things. A region change is not "game breaking" necessary for something to be reverted. To implement another system is up to them, but so long as this system is in place, all decisions have to be made with this system in mind.

If we consider bugs to always be necessary to be changed if they hurt or benefit one realm/character/player over another then a dangerous precedent is set. The devs/Tom spend enough time on the game volunteering to help create the game what it is. If they were to implement a policy based upon revoking all bugs (because any bug can be argued to benefit one over another) then they would have no time to actually work on the game itself. So long as this is a free game to play, and our developers work on a volunteer basis, I can't see how we can implement a system requiring their daily monitoring of all bugs to make sure the game is "fair" for everyone.

Namely, we try our best, and work through those times things aren't fair. Anything else is unreasonable to ask.

[Draco Tanos]

Just give the region to Summerdale along with any troops inside it as militia at this point.  The Magistrates' leniency has been abused for too long as is.  Leave the offender as lord so he can even be banished by Summerdale. 

[JPierreD]

If we consider bugs to always be necessary to be changed if they hurt or benefit one realm/character/player over another then a dangerous precedent is set. The devs/Tom spend enough time on the game volunteering to help create the game what it is. If they were to implement a policy based upon revoking all bugs (because any bug can be argued to benefit one over another) then they would have no time to actually work on the game itself. So long as this is a free game to play, and our developers work on a volunteer basis, I can't see how we can implement a system requiring their daily monitoring of all bugs to make sure the game is "fair" for everyone.

Namely, we try our best, and work through those times things aren't fair. Anything else is unreasonable to ask.

If the region would have revolted back to the Libero Empire due to a bug I would have not really minded, but having the Lord player willingly switching allegiance back to the Libero, stealing the militia, yes, feels like abuse. The idea of punishments is not to right every wrong, but to stimulate fair play, at least to me.

[Penchant]

Just give the region to Summerdale along with any troops inside it as militia at this point.  The Magistrates' leniency has been abused for too long as is.  Leave the offender as lord so he can even be banished by Summerdale.

Once again you ignore people, the dev policy is to play through bugs. It is not playing through it when you give the region back with militia of Libero's though there might have still been some Summerdale militia. Basically, you are saying anytime that a bug is exploited, all that are victims or effected in anyway deserve to do the bug back to the perpotrator.

[Gustav Kuriga]

Once again you ignore people, the dev policy is to play through bugs. It is not playing through it when you give the region back with militia of Libero's though there might have still been some Summerdale militia. Basically, you are saying anytime that a bug is exploited, all that are victims or effected in anyway deserve to do the bug back to the perpotrator.

The key words are "to play through bugs". Not "bug exploits". There is a huge difference here.

[Indirik]

Effects of bugs will *not* be manually adjusted by Tom, unless they are game-breaking bugs. Not "realm breaking", or "ruins my personal plans" bad. We mean throws-off-the-balance-of-the-island bad.

This policy is not going to change. There are damn good historical reasons why this is so. Deal with it.

And a note to the Magistrates: why are you not moderating this thread? Case threads are supposed to be strictly moderated to prevent this unproductive bickering. You're just allowing more hard feelings to develop on both sides of this issue.

[Vellos]

I think we've mostly stopped reading it.

[Indirik]

Then lock it.

[Tom]

Why not? Surely there should be a difference in punishment for exploiting a bug/ignoring a Magistrate ruling that, say, gives your region 100 extra food bushels, compared to exploiting a bug/ignoring a Magistrate ruling that changes the outcome of a war.

The magistrates are an OOC instance, for Social Contract and Inalienable Rights infringements. IC results, effects, whatever should not matter to them.

If someone is breaking an IR, for example, then it shouldn't matter if doing so changes a war or has no effect whatsoever. It really, really shouldn't. I understand the emotional side to it. It sure feels as if someone should get a harsher punishment for a bigger effect. But that's irrational, and it will lead to all kinds of revenge cases.

[Tom]

Also, topic locked, there's not additional information forthcoming as it seems. The magistrates have all the information they need. Thanks to everyone for contributing. If someone wants to clean out the unproductive comments, feel free, I'm too tired right now.