Judicial Punishments with Teeth

[GoldPanda]

Right now, a Judge can fine a noble for misbehaving. This isn't actually a punishment on the noble, as he can then just turn around and ask for funds, so that he can keep his men paid. If he doesn't get the money, he'll probably lose his unit and have to wait for next tax day. So either the Lords and Dukes end up footing the bill for him, or the General gets punished instead with a slightly smaller army. Either way, it's not a big deal to anyone involved, and the offender's biggest punishment is possibly a few days of boredom.

I'd like to see the Judge being able to hand down punishments that players would actually want to avoid. Maybe this means making you pay for fines out of your family gold. Maybe this means the Judge can make you lose honor/prestige as well.

Thoughts?

[Alpha]

I like the idea, especially lose of prestige.

[Bedwyr]

I like it.  I've long had some misgivings about fines because lack of gold (in most cases) hurts the realm/army more than the individual in question.  Loss of prestige ("After receiving formal censure from the Judge, whispers begin among the lesser nobility, and your prestige is lessened in their eyes") would seem to make sense.

[Indirik]

You don't want to be able to give any players the ability to directly lower another player's stats. Such a thing is ripe for abuse. And even if it's not used in an abusive manner, you can bet that the complaints and accusations will be flying thick. That already happens with honor and vulgarity messages.

And if you make a noble pay for it out of family gold, then he'll just put it right back the next time he goes to the bank.

Fees are intended to be a light punishment. More of an official warning kind of thing. That's why they're not recorded anywhere.

[Bedwyr]

Something between nothing (which is what most fines work out to being) and banishment would be nice.  Torture directly lowers stats, and can be done on anyone who enters your prison.  Yeah, there's some honour penalty, but I imagine a similar sort of penalty could work for lowering prestige.  You censure someone, they lose three prestige, and you lose one.

[Indirik]

Yes, you can torture someone and lower a stat, at a heavy price to yourself, and only to people in your own prison. Rarely do people captured in battle get tortured. It is almost always reserved for infiltrators committing assassinations and for particularly notorious enemies.

Yes, maybe there could be some intermediate penalty. But a prestige loss? Even being banished from a realm, which is a harsh penalty, doesn't give you a prestige or honor hit.

[Zakilevo]

What about giving the judge power to arrest other nobles? but give nobles choices between being arrested willingly or fight with guards with his men? Guards can be militia units or the judge's units.

[Bedwyr]

Yes, you can torture someone and lower a stat, at a heavy price to yourself, and only to people in your own prison. Rarely do people captured in battle get tortured. It is almost always reserved for infiltrators committing assassinations and for particularly notorious enemies.

The fact that it's not used more frequently is only a custom, and a relatively recent one at that.  I remember when it was standard practice for Abington and the CE (and presumably their various allies, though I don't know) to torture anyone in military command positions to try and find out strategy info.  Heck, that's why the code was changed so that torture could only reveal stuff sent before you got captured, because there were draconian punishments for bribing the guards to get mail as that put current orders at the mercy of the other realm, and Tom got annoyed.

What's the penalty for torture (besides any political repercussions)?  A slight honour loss?

[Indirik]

I believe it's an honor and prestige penalty. And the amount you lose depends on how much you have.

[Shenron]

I think the subtraction from the family gold is a good idea. Yeah maybe the character will just replace it, but he will not be seen to have the right to as it would compromise his ability to upkeep a decent unit, which we will then defer to the normal customs of "Hey !@#$%^&, why did send the gold back to your family that I just gave you!" or in more noble terms, "You are not honouring your terms as my vassal by not defending my interests etc etc"

[vonGenf]

Maybe this means making you pay for fines out of your family gold.
Thoughts?

At first sight, I liked this idea, but there is a possible loophole: people who ask the Judge to fine them to get gold instead of asking for family support.

[Igelfeld]

What if judges were able to do formal reprimands that could then go into the players family history. That would be something people would like to avoid I think, and any abuse of it could be explained by the noble in question. 

[Zakilevo]

that would be nice. In fact, wouldn't be nice if each character had his own history instead of a family history?

[Fury]

What about giving the judge power to arrest other nobles? but give nobles choices between being arrested willingly or fight with guards with his men? Guards can be militia units or the judge's units.

An excellent idea. Justice Bao in ancient China showed no fear or favour in arresting anyone including Royalty apart from the Emperor. The power to arrest a noble makes playing a judge very appealing. If someone is found innocent he can then be released. If not then mete out a punishment. If he abuses his powers he can always be protested out.

On the choice to go willingly or not - yes, yes, yes! To balance things out.

In fact, wouldn't be nice if each character had his own history instead of a family history?

Another excellent idea. About time character history was streamlined.

[Shenron]

An excellent idea. Justice Bao in ancient China showed no fear or favour in arresting anyone including Royalty apart from the Emperor. The power to arrest a noble makes playing a judge very appealing. If someone is found innocent he can then be released. If not then mete out a punishment. If he abuses his powers he can always be protested out.

On the choice to go willingly or not - yes, yes, yes! To balance things out.

Maybe we can finally have the judges power in accordance with that whole weak/strong/medium thing the ruler gets to decide. Strong judges can arrest people