Well, I would remind that you did not find good examples of the subject, as both Astroism and CoI based their power on theocratic states. What I am talking about are competing powers, not jointed powers, that create even more monopoly and less competition, that is religions that will be able to compete other powers and be somewhat independent. Flow could be good example if I did not learn that two rich dukes have their own brothers (what a coincidence among the most important elders, which again lead to few-size-all power instead of competing powers. Again, that is not so much because of power-hungry players, but because of mechanics, where insufficiently powerful positions can only function if bolstered with additional titles, which simply works against idea of team-play, by design.
Family affiliation is an important part of the game. Quite a few people use family affiliation as an integral part of their RP. There is nothing wrong with using your family's influence and power to further the political/power goals of other family members. This is, after all, a medieval RP. Family is everything, right? And you can feel free to use that against them, as well.
On contrary, to the maximum extent! If religions had net positive income, they could influence realms, play their own little games, being not dependent on realms, and to some extent being not dependent on landed lords.
So you feel that religions being able to generate significant streams of revenue will make them independent of realm influence? Actually, I'd go the exact opposite path. If this was the case, then you would see realms all over the place start to institute their own pet religions, even more so than now. And these religions would support their realm, and even provide military forces for the realm. Religions that did not do this would not be allowed, and would be replaced with ones that did. Very few realms, if any, would allow a competing power structure to coexist with their realm-based structure. They would be integrated and controlled by the same group. That is exactly why religions do
not generate significant sources of their own income. Of course, you can do it yourself by taxing your noble members via monthly fees.
Of course, landed lords can limit their influence in many ways, but the sole fact that religions do not need to beg for money, but have some of their own income would provide much more depth to plots, calculations, power plays etc. All of that is non-existent for beggars.
Religions are not dependent on
realms for funding. They are dependent on
nobles for funding. There is a significant, and extremely important, difference. You don't have to get the official support of the realm of Keplerstan. All you need is the support of one of their lords. The richer the lord, the better. And it is imperative on the religion to give the nobles a reason to contribute. There are many religions that
don't have a funding problem. They offer the nobility something that they feel is worth the contribution. It could be that the religion supports them against their enemies. Or it supports their RP. Or it provides fun for the players. Whatever it is they provide, it works for them. If you can't convince your noble members to contribute to the success of your religion, then your religion is
not providing them with something that they want. And I seriously doubt that this has anything at all to do with game mechanics.
And if, for some reason, you think that no realm would allow a new religion to move in anyway, I can guarantee you that you are mistaken. There are many realms that would be willing to allow you to move in and set up shop. On EC alone I can think of at least three, maybe four realms that would let you move in, so long as you didn't cause trouble, or preach a faith that had blatant doctrinal contradictions to the ones already followed. Sanctus Acies and Church of Humanity have always coexisted, and in the past been quit peaceful with Triunism. On BT, Riombara has always had a very lenient policy on new religions. PeL on Dwilight used to be, too. I hear, OOC, that Carelia was shopping around for a new religion to help invigorate some of their RP, too.
If we had competing powers, lot of preaching and bringing lot of followers should bring some funds, I am not advocating funds comparable to region income at all, I am just talking about some funds. While dukes can sit in their region forever, doing very little over basic food arrangement, priests need to endlessly wander around preaching and taking care of follower levels, so why that would not be rewarded with some funds. Mere rank which competes very hard work, competing ways to earn funds.
More followers = more funds. Match your temple to your following, and don't overdo it on shrines, you should get very close to your expenses.
Mongols and huns depended on spiritual arrangement much more than on funds, and if game could be designed in way that armies could be self-sustainable by mere looting, that would be indeed fun, but I cannot imagine how complex it would be to find balance. Again, i was trying to talk about having possibility to reach the same goals with different ways instead of being hanged on gold transfers only. the game world is so deep, and I believe tweaks without any revolutionary changes could reach that, not in the case of looting but in come other mentioned examples.
I am trying to advocate diversity all the time, and if you see some discrepancy, please be exact.
You want more ways to achieve the same ends. That's fine, I'm good with that. But when the diplomat ability to influence regions is implemented, you complain that it duplicates the priest ability, making priests useless.
Priests lose lot of followers, and net loss is big compared to what they achieve, while diplomats, again, lose gold only.
It is quite possible that the two competing methods need some balance and adjustment. Perhaps someone could do some testing of this, and post the results? I honestly don't know the extent of the two effects.
With religion dependent on outside funding, priests are reduced to some second-grade courtiers, and in many realms they are openly treated that way. Again with religion who beg even RTO is reduced to some attachment to army actions, instead of being tool of elders power-play, which could complicate situation to many.
Then refuse to be treated that way. Stick up for yourself. Refuse to profane your religious faith for the benefit of secular authorities. Or ask for a generous contribution to your faith to compensate for your troubles. Of course once you perform the RTO, the region now belongs to you. And guess what? You now have the financial support of a lordship for your religion. Isn't this what you wanted in the first place?
I will try to rephrase in simple way - dukes use faith either as their decorative element or they ignore it. they are not even slightly pushed to take care of it even if they don't like it, at least on level they are pushed to take care of trade (where balance is not so good as well, rural lords are mostly poor beggars, while holding the most important non-city regions)
Trade and food issues are being addressed, albeit slowly, to allow the better balance of gold/food between cities/rurals. And hopefully the new systems will allow the majority of that system to be automated. We want that kind of stuff to be as automatic as possible, if those involved want it to be.
But aside from that, why should they be required to do things on a regular basis to "take care of" their city's religions faith? What should they be required to do, other than to restock the treasuries every now and then? Dukes are not priests, so the "maintenance" of the religious faith of the city is not their responsibility. (Assuming the duke is not also a priest.)
yes, they should have reduced food/gold productivity, say 80% of those who follow any faith, as religion was only real incentive for them, their pay was sufficient for bare living, they could never earn something or create financial reserves, spend their whole life in such a manner, (interestingly some in south america still live that way), i think it could be historically justified
I completely disagree.
I am trying to talk about that all the time, but this is moment to summarize:
- religions, financially independent, self sustainable power , with enough hard work in preaching and taking care of things (not frequent logging, of course, but long dedication to preaching etc.)
This is intentionally not the case, by design.
- council members, whose mere rank has enough power to oppose landed lord rather than being completely dependent on them
I'm not sure what you mean here, especially as relates to religion. Are you saying that there should be a religious council-level office?
it would be ideal that both mentioned have ability to be powerful enough to not care for landed positions for themselves. that way much more nobles would be in positions on power, and they would naturally compete to each other, as all of them would have limitation to their powers. compare to current situation where almost everything is relied upon landed lord sponsorship.
the only exception are property taxes, but they are very limited currently and can easily be avoided.
i believe one single change, non-revolutionary tweak (which is even accepted by tom if i remember well) - realm council that can directly tax cities would make major difference.
While I agree that the realms *should* be able to forcibly tax cities directly, without having to rely on the completely avoidable current duchy tax system, I don't see what this has to do with empowering religions.
together with influential religions that are not directly dependent on landed lords to the extent they are currently, that would create many natural tensions that we would not need "too much peace" code at all in my opnion as nonone would be able to control everythign as there would be too much competing powers for that.
"Competing power" does not directly mean "endless warfare". It sees to me that the system you are proposing would mostly result in political infighting and
not direct, large-scale, realm-based conflict that is at the core of BattleMaster.
