Family affiliation is an important part of the game. Quite a few people use family affiliation as an integral part of their RP. There is nothing wrong with using your family's influence and power to further the political/power goals of other family members. This is, after all, a medieval RP. Family is everything, right? And you can feel free to use that against them, as well.
In my point of view this is very questionable despite all that talk about players who make valiant efforts to separate their doubled characters - in game, in 99% of cases i see double characters used as slots who give ooc advantage to players who use it, limit interaction, limit need for players to be more involved in I-G world, and finally severely limits title opportunities, as double chars too often take double titles depriving others from it. i fully belive that is stalls the game as a whole, creating power you cannot compete with. even with such opinion, i would not prefer that to be completely removed, but would always want to see that game mechanics at least allows competing approaches to be implemented. currently, by design, everyone who uses that doubling simply has too huge advantage.
So you feel that religions being able to generate significant streams of revenue will make them independent of realm influence? Actually, I'd go the exact opposite path. If this was the case, then you would see realms all over the place start to institute their own pet religions, even more so than now. And these religions would support their realm, and even provide military forces for the realm. Religions that did not do this would not be allowed, and would be replaced with ones that did. Very few realms, if any, would allow a competing power structure to coexist with their realm-based structure. They would be integrated and controlled by the same group. That is exactly why religions do not generate significant sources of their own income. Of course, you can do it yourself by taxing your noble members via monthly fees.
The main point is in balance, and such scenario you mention is unrealistic. If, say, religion, with 10-15 temples would provide income equal to some small-sized cities, how could any ruler ever bother to found religion, "recruit" enough priests and followers, just to ensure some modest funding? I cannot imagine that. It is intended for those who have no other mans except such one, and no-one who has much more efficient way to earn money would ever bother. Moreover, so much effort is needed that I truly don't believe anybody would found religion and do so much
religious job just to take some moderate funds. Net income would be side-effect for those who are fully in religion anyhow, giving them some small power.
Religions are not dependent on realms for funding. They are dependent on nobles for funding. There is a significant, and extremely important, difference. You don't have to get the official support of the realm of Keplerstan. All you need is the support of one of their lords. The richer the lord, the better. And it is imperative on the religion to give the nobles a reason to contribute.
That would be true if lords are absolutely and completely free to do whatever they want, but it is not the case in many realms, and there is straightforward power of judges related to realm laws as well. Nevertheless, what I am advocating is that religion would be somewhat financially independent of everybody, though, their temples, of course still remain dependent on will of region lords. Current financial dependency simply renders religions unattractive.
There are many religions that don't have a funding problem. They offer the nobility something that they feel is worth the contribution. It could be that the religion supports them against their enemies. Or it supports their RP. Or it provides fun for the players. Whatever it is they provide, it works for them. If you can't convince your noble members to contribute to the success of your religion, then your religion is not providing them with something that they want. And I seriously doubt that this has anything at all to do with game mechanics.
I simply do not see it anywhere and I stand firmly behind it unless proved otherwise. Base of religion power comes only from either theocratic state or rich lords, who are not even interactive in-game friends, but are mostly family members. some players are prone to be attracted with anyhow large religions (similar to large realms), but that only further degrades things, as people learned that everything is monopolized and they have no hope to be able to try to compete, as power base is somewhere else, where you cannot touch it.
that is what i am talking about - power is either with state of with rich lords, but that is not religious game, as power comes from the outside, rendering religion mere decorative attachment, so why would people bother? if they want landlords game, they would play it, if they want realm policies, they would play it, they do not need religion, as it does not provide them any alternative. "religious game" is blocked by outside factors, by current tweaks.
And if, for some reason, you think that no realm would allow a new religion to move in anyway, I can guarantee you that you are mistaken. There are many realms that would be willing to allow you to move in and set up shop. On EC alone I can think of at least three, maybe four realms that would let you move in, so long as you didn't cause trouble, or preach a faith that had blatant doctrinal contradictions to the ones already followed. Sanctus Acies and Church of Humanity have always coexisted, and in the past been quit peaceful with Triunism. On BT, Riombara has always had a very lenient policy on new religions. PeL on Dwilight used to be, too. I hear, OOC, that Carelia was shopping around for a new religion to help invigorate some of their RP, too.
I am not sure that i presented such thoughts somewhere. in previous discussions, I hope it is to some extent clear (if i expressed it well), that i care for self-sustaining power of religion more than the fact where it resides.
However, one of your quotes describes much: )...)
that would let you move in, so long as you didn't cause trouble(...).
That is the point! If you are so sure that someone will not cause trouble, ever, because he is so weak and will never be able to become very influential, you are taking care to make eternal stall
That is natural behavior of those in power that game mechanics unfortunately endorses. Mechanics should prevent any opportunity for those in power to control everything, so when you play, no matter how strong and influential you are, you should live with that that you cannot predict and control everything. Currently, mechanics allows monopolization of power which is covered by many fancy explanations of use of family influences, long-terms ties etc. all that stuff provides nothing but boredom and i have no sympathy for that.
More followers = more funds. Match your temple to your following, and don't overdo it on shrines, you should get very close to your expenses.
Again, i don't see it in practice after many, many months of silent checking. you either have net negative income because of too many buildings, or permanent loss of followers because of too little buildings. maybe there is some difference to that when some religion totally prevails in wide area, which is the case only with some large theocracies, so you have your balance when you actually don't needed as everything is in your hands anyhow
You want more ways to achieve the same ends. That's fine, I'm good with that. But when the diplomat ability to influence regions is implemented, you complain that it duplicates the priest ability, making priests useless.
These are not competing ways, that is the same way given to diplomat, reducing significance of priests. i am aware that effort has been made to make diplomats more attractive, which would be good in general, but is not good if it comes at costs of priests. competing powers would be that diplomats have some other measure noone else has.
Then refuse to be treated that way. Stick up for yourself. Refuse to profane your religious faith for the benefit of secular authorities. Or ask for a generous contribution to your faith to compensate for your troubles. Of course once you perform the RTO, the region now belongs to you. And guess what? You now have the financial support of a lordship for your religion. Isn't this what you wanted in the first place?
it is exactly what i am doing, but all who join me get bored after a while as nothing can be achieved., only frustration that never ends, one burden after another. the only way why i am in it is because i don't care at all will i ever reach success, i care for storyline more than anything else. i feel, however, that game mechanics forces you to play only in one single manner if you want to achieve something, which is disappointing, as game world initially gives you idea that much more depth is possible, but in reality, such balance tweaks made most of ways really impractical.
RTO's does not work without large addition support of courtiers, police-work etc.. which you will not get if you are not tool of mundane powers.
in general that is ok that region needs different kinds of work to be maintained, but than it should be distributed fairly. with all priest powers i had, i tried to
prepare region with about 600 population and lowest stats, to raise morale and loyalty before rto, to have it stable after rto, but did not manage it with rl 6 months of attempts, region that is outside of any route.
if you cannot use your highest power for even such insignificant region, than you really cannot create alternative way.
on the other hand, if we would want fair balance, than pagan peasants should make more troubles. if priests cannot do it without police-workers, than it should be vice-versa at least to some extent, if we want to enforce interaction and cooperation.
the biggest trouble with mentioned power monopolies, and main reason why i am writing all this at all, is that monopolies
do not need interaction and cooperation and it is very much visible in many realms.
I completely disagree.
you may not like to see too much religion because of any kind of rl reason, but pagan peasants really did not exist at all at middle ages, religion was core of any kind of hierarchy and control, so reducing productivity for pagan peasants it seems as really mild measure in my humble opinion.
I'm not sure what you mean here, especially as relates to religion. Are you saying that there should be a religious council-level office?
While I agree that the realms *should* be able to forcibly tax cities directly, without having to rely on the completely avoidable current duchy tax system, I don't see what this has to do with empowering religions.
"Competing power" does not directly mean "endless warfare". It sees to me that the system you are proposing would mostly result in political infighting and not direct, large-scale, realm-based conflict that is at the core of BattleMaster.
at the end of my previous post, i tried to extend idea of competing powers to other lever of power, realm council, to show some similarities as to how to achieve it.
that is, of course your opinion, but why do you think competing powers would necessarily create inter-realm wars only?
i think, if it would be properly balanced, noone could predict what would actually happen, and that, exactly that, would make game more interesting.
some competing powers would possible create strong realms who would have expansionist ambitions, other would create endless internal struggles, but that would be up to players to play and achieve something by one means or another, with different success, instead of game mechanics forcing them to use one way only.
