War please.

[Geronus]

Honestly I think it's a cool idea in principle. I wish more players were equally as willing to push the bounds with creating interesting reasons for conflict. The only thing I wonder about is whether Aurvandil would have really accepted anything Barca might have done. I suspect they were looking for a good excuse to go to war. Barca via Julius was apparently happy to provide, but even if they'd bent over backwards not to, something tells me it would have eventually gone down one way or another 

[DoctorHarte]

Aurvandil wanted to remain vague in their demands so that Barca could think of their own solutions to satisfy them, but that vagueness is the precise reason that no treaty could be established.

Rather because Barca didn't even try to do anything about it, that's why no treaty was established.

[NoblesseChevaleresque]

So, one group held power in Barca (the "tyrannical and corrupt" "old guard" with a "clique mentality"), Aurvandil wanted a different group to have it (the "newer nobles ostracised as troublemakers and traitors"), the current Barcan leaders refused it, and war. Sounds legit.

Who said anything about changing who had power? I've said more than once on this thread I didn't want to change who had power, but reform the way that power worked.

Aurvandil wanted to remain vague in their demands so that Barca could think of their own solutions to satisfy them, but that vagueness is the precise reason that no treaty could be established.

Well, as DoctorHarte says, the reason a solution wasn't was that Barca wasn't bothering, we literally gave them a mandate to do "anything" that had a consequence and we'd accept it, within reason. But really compounded this, was the fact they just turned around with some irrelevant treaty that presupposed the territorial dispute wouldn't be an issue, sort of making it clear they weren't doing anything for a real treaty or that interested.

[Bael]

But really compounded this, was the fact they just turned around with some irrelevant treaty that presupposed the territorial dispute wouldn't be an issue, sort of making it clear they weren't doing anything for a real treaty or that interested.

Ask a vague question and get a vague answer 

You're leaving out the part where Aurvandil was asked to clarify what sort of reforms they wanted.

PS: I can honestly say that no one in Barca had any idea what you were driving at. The most that I could think of was perhaps some laws to do with fining and banishment.

[Vellos]

Who said anything about changing who had power? I've said more than once on this thread I didn't want to change who had power, but reform the way that power worked.

And yet you didn't propose any reforms.

[NoblesseChevaleresque]

Ask a vague question and get a vague answer 

You're leaving out the part where Aurvandil was asked to clarify what sort of reforms they wanted.

PS: I can honestly say that no one in Barca had any idea what you were driving at. The most that I could think of was perhaps some laws to do with fining and banishment.

I didn't get a vague answer, I got a very clear one. But the answer itself was meaningless and irrelevant, nor even an answer within itself. The point was, Barca would talk amongst themselves and decide what they thought was best for change in their realm and run it by Mendicant, Mendicant can't know 100% from the outside what means you should use to change the way your government operates, it's not like I asked for any sort of gargantuan amount of discussion or creativity.

And yet you didn't propose any reforms.

Yes, as I keep saying, that was deliberate. It's not like Barca need me to hold their hand every step of the way and hand it to them on a platter; Mendicant wanted them to choose the reforms, to discuss the reforms, and to come up with the reforms they thought were best, which would achieve a lot more than Mendicant handing down arbitrary reforms from his perspective. As opposed to Barcan's seeing what is wrong with their realm, Barcan's deciding on how to deal with it, Barcan's resolving their own problems and not just having Mendicant doing it all for them.

[Penchant]

As opposed to Barcan's seeing what is wrong with their realm, Barcan's deciding on how to deal with it, Barcan's resolving their own problems and not just having Mendicant doing it all for them.

The issue is they don't know what problems need to be fixed and thus can't fix them. Did you want a change in goverment type? Did you want lords to be appointed not elected? Did you want the general to act differently? I am just throwing out random crap because how the heck are they supposed to know what you think is wrong. If you want their lords to be appointed not elected and they told their general to act differently which wasn't the problem in your mind but they didn't know what was then they are going to be "fixing" things that don't need to be changed.

[NoblesseChevaleresque]

The issue is they don't know what problems need to be fixed and thus can't fix them. Did you want a change in goverment type? Did you want lords to be appointed not elected? Did you want the general to act differently? I am just throwing out random crap because how the heck are they supposed to know what you think is wrong. If you want their lords to be appointed not elected and they told their general to act differently which wasn't the problem in your mind but they didn't know what was then they are going to be "fixing" things that don't need to be changed.

I had an extensive conversation for over a month with their Ambassador about the problems in their realm, if they didn't know they could have asked their Ambassador, in fact I was under the presumption he would say to Barca "The High Sovereign wants change of consequence in order to hand over the regions due to these different problems". Failing that, Barca could have asked Mendicant exactly what was the problems with Barca, there's no justifiable excuse for Barca not knowing.

You need to make a distinction here as well, it's not about what individual changes Mendicant wants implemented because there aren't any as such, but he wants some form of change to occur. The distinction being, Mendicant hasn't gone into this thinking "Right, I want this that and the other to be replaced", but he has gone in into thinking "I want to Barca to to recognise the problem, and offer their solution to it". Which is key to this entire thing, It's not about Mendicant telling them the changes he wants, it's about Mendicant telling you what is wrong, and leaving you to decide what change is required.

You need to think less of this as "What would Mendicant want in change?" or "What can we do to appease Mendicant?", but rather "Mendicant has listed the problems, now what can we do to change them". It's not about appeasing Mendicant, Mendicant would accept just about any form of change, it's about deciding on what change you think is best then informing Mendicant of it.

[Indirik]

The "change you think is best"  presupposes that Barca actually *wants* to change. Apparently, though, they don't, so therefore "no change" is best for Barca. So the true question really is "What can we do to appease Mendicant?"

[Dante Silverfire]

The "change you think is best"  presupposes that Barca actually *wants* to change. Apparently, though, they don't, so therefore "no change" is best for Barca. So the true question really is "What can we do to appease Mendicant?"

Ask for vassalage?

[Indirik]

Not from the way I read NoblesseChevaleresque's posts. Begging for vassalage indicates cowardice and weakness, and would provoke an attack. In fact, I can't really see anything Barca could have done to stop the attack. Which is fine, really. Aurvandil wanted a war, so they picked a decent provocation (insults from the Barcan ambassador) and went in with guns blazing. +1 for Aurvandil.

[Vellos]

Not from the way I read NoblesseChevaleresque's posts. Begging for vassalage indicates cowardice and weakness, and would provoke an attack. In fact, I can't really see anything Barca could have done to stop the attack. Which is fine, really. Aurvandil wanted a war, so they picked a decent provocation (insults from the Barcan ambassador) and went in with guns blazing. +1 for Aurvandil.

That's my perception too. And I'm fine with that; clever aggression is neat.

I'm just OOCly confused about why the players in Aurvandil are OOCly insisting otherwise.

[Penchant]

I had an extensive conversation for over a month with their Ambassador about the problems in their realm, if they didn't know they could have asked their Ambassador, in fact I was under the presumption he would say to Barca "The High Sovereign wants change of consequence in order to hand over the regions due to these different problems". Failing that, Barca could have asked Mendicant exactly what was the problems with Barca, there's no justifiable excuse for Barca not knowing.

You need to make a distinction here as well, it's not about what individual changes Mendicant wants implemented because there aren't any as such, but he wants some form of change to occur. The distinction being, Mendicant hasn't gone into this thinking "Right, I want this that and the other to be replaced", but he has gone in into thinking "I want to Barca to to recognise the problem, and offer their solution to it". Which is key to this entire thing, It's not about Mendicant telling them the changes he wants, it's about Mendicant telling you what is wrong, and leaving you to decide what change is required.

You need to think less of this as "What would Mendicant want in change?" or "What can we do to appease Mendicant?", but rather "Mendicant has listed the problems, now what can we do to change them". It's not about appeasing Mendicant, Mendicant would accept just about any form of change, it's about deciding on what change you think is best then informing Mendicant of it.

So there is some big problem you are saying that you want fixed but can be fixed many ways, what is that?

[NoblesseChevaleresque]

The "change you think is best"  presupposes that Barca actually *wants* to change. Apparently, though, they don't, so therefore "no change" is best for Barca. So the true question really is "What can we do to appease Mendicant?"

Well, if Barca don't want to change. Fine, they don't have to, but if they want Mendicant to hand them their lands, they will. Of course, Mendicant was lead to believe they were discussing possible change, and wasn't informed of any reticence to enacting policy reforms.

Not from the way I read NoblesseChevaleresque's posts. Begging for vassalage indicates cowardice and weakness, and would provoke an attack. In fact, I can't really see anything Barca could have done to stop the attack. Which is fine, really. Aurvandil wanted a war, so they picked a decent provocation (insults from the Barcan ambassador) and went in with guns blazing. +1 for Aurvandil.

Naturally, why would Aurvandil seek a weak and cowardly vassal? One that would debase itself so thoroughly as to beg? We would only defame ourselves by association.

Barca could have avoided the war, there are other realms we could have fought, since it's not really a fair war, Aurvandil vs Barca (which is also why we aren't taking regions, that would just be boring for everyone and ruin the possibility of future conflicts)...  But yes, Aurvandil wanted war and Barca handed us one when their Ambassador invested so much into insulting the High Sovereign; we can't just sit around doing nothing but collecting tax gold, that is just... complacent mediocrity, something I/we (Same thing when your a King using the royal we) have to do something unless we want Aurvandil to become a realm that just exists because they exist, not because they do anything or have any worth or impact to the entertainment of the game. With any luck Barca and Aurvandil will agree to peace so we can find something even funner to do.

That's my perception too. And I'm fine with that; clever aggression is neat.

I'm just OOCly confused about why the players in Aurvandil are OOCly insisting otherwise.

I'm arguing our IC reasons, which wasn't just "We want a war", but OOC we did want a war, and Barca basically obligated us through our own Roleplayed culture and honour to fight a war.

So there is some big problem you are saying that you want fixed but can be fixed many ways, what is that?

That is correct, there are many ways to fix it, we'll let them pick which way they want, and which way they think is best for Barca.

[Indirik]

That is correct, there are many ways to fix it, we'll let them pick which way they want, and which way they think is best for Barca.

I think Penchant meant "What is the the thing that they need to fix?" i.e. what is it about Barca to which you object?