Author Topic: A Matter Of Honour // This-Is-How-You-Declare-War.  (Read 74012 times)

Indirik

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So... what religious buildings *are* allowed in Aurvandil?
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Velax

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Only shrines to Terrence.

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Shrines to Terrence would be so awesome. 
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JPierreD

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Medieval times, you mean those times in Europe where there was a single religion with a handful of churches with slight deviations in their own belief, enforced by both law and force of arms? We can hardly realistically be "SMA" about religion if we're copying medieval Europe, and it'd be !@#$ if we tried to.

The Medieval times is a long period which had several religions coexisting, not only Catholicism, though I see BM's religion module as more closely resembling an Ancient times model.
In any case SMA, as said before, is about you character acting with the mindset of the medieval noble. Keep reading and I'll explain how yours is not doing it.

And Aurvandil is religious to an extent, we call it Monarchism.

The Oxford Dictionary defines religion as this:

the belief in and worship of a superhuman controlling power, especially a personal God or gods:

[count noun] a particular system of faith and worship: the world’s great religions
[count noun] a pursuit or interest followed with great devotion:

The Oxford Dictionary defines Monarchism as this:
noun
support for the principle of having monarchs.

Is that your religion? Where is the belief and worship of a superhuman controlling power in there? Unless you claim to be following the definition of "a pursuit or interest followed with great devotion", which with such an open interpretation could make Sudoku a religion.

That rather sums up Aurvandil's attitudes towards Monarchism and the High Sovereign, we just don't call it religion because that would imply it's... faith based, mere belief and worship, as opposed to being very real and ever present in peoples daily lives in a quantifiable, provable way.

This is not SMA at all. That is the logic of a post-Enlightenment Age person, not of a superstitious medieval noble. Religions are not "mere beliefs" for our SMA characters, they are the only absolute truths they have, their anchor and reference. There is a saying among religious people in where I live that sums up what is SMA (and also modern for many people): "There are only two things certain in life: that God exists and death".

Your culture seems to be a very modern form of Enlightened absolutism, post French revolution. A monarch would be very swiftly ousted by nobility and peasants alike if he declared war on religion, seen as a heathen and a madman.
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NoblesseChevaleresque

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them very ICly being complete and utter failures at diplomacy. War they can do; diplomacy they cannot. They very well might win the war, in which case their ignorance of diplomacy might be vindicated. But yes, I think that they could win the propaganda war.

You base that statement on what exactly?

Aurvandil very much succeeds at its intended diplomatic path of amicable isolationism, straightforward politics and maintaining cordial relations with it's neighbours and friendships with it's friends, save for Barca. But I assume that you think because we don't make large strings of alliances, or cosying up to people that our diplomacy has failed, when that isn't the prerogative of our diplomacy in the first place.

There are very good in character reasons why Aurvandil hasn't yet made alliances with certain realms, but that is because we don't accept the traditional paradigm of an alliance, which is why I declined a generic "mutual support" alliance with D'Hara when offered.

NoblesseChevaleresque

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So... what religious buildings *are* allowed in Aurvandil?

Depends on what you consider to be religious I suppose, which opens a kettle of fish about buildings in Aurvandil we can consider to be religious, or sacred, etc.

The Medieval times is a long period which had several religions coexisting, not only Catholicism, though I see BM's religion module as more closely resembling an Ancient times model.
In any case SMA, as said before, is about you character acting with the mindset of the medieval noble. Keep reading and I'll explain how yours is not doing it.

The Oxford Dictionary defines Monarchism as this:
noun
support for the principle of having monarchs.

Is that your religion? Where is the belief and worship of a superhuman controlling power in there? Unless you claim to be following the definition of "a pursuit or interest followed with great devotion", which with such an open interpretation could make Sudoku a religion.

This is not SMA at all. That is the logic of a post-Enlightenment Age person, not of a superstitious medieval noble. Religions are not "mere beliefs" for our SMA characters, they are the only absolute truths they have, their anchor and reference. There is a saying among religious people in where I live that sums up what is SMA (and also modern for many people): "There are only two things certain in life: that God exists and death".

Your culture seems to be a very modern form of Enlightened absolutism, post French revolution. A monarch would be very swiftly ousted by nobility and peasants alike if he declared war on religion, seen as a heathen and a madman.

Aurvandil hasn't declared war on religion, it's only people on the forum saying that as far as I am aware, and last I checked what hearsay posted on the forum doesn't actually reflect the in character policies of Aurvandil. It's like saying Aurvandil has declared war on scouts, if we close a scouts guild. Aurvandil, in it's time has closed a single religious building, and that was done against the instruction of Mendicant, and Aurvandil however has made it perfectly clear what other realms believe/worship/build isn't any of our business, and is below our notice, the only time we would take exception to their religion is when they try to force it on other realms, which, as the last free realm of the League, we are obligated to do. If we declared war on religion to spread our own views on religion, then how would that make us any different from realms that try to spread their religions by force? It wouldn't, but it would make us hypocrites. Aurvandil isn't going to be fighting any war to spread religious views, quite simply.

Mendicant made it quite clear in his letter to D'Hara while back that Aurvandil deals with varying religions simply by making them irrelevant to the Commonwealth, by refuting their beliefs or otherwise extolling the virtues of our own ideology as a counter, but mainly by ignoring the religion, letting it fade from public awareness. Which is fairly standard practice for trying to put one religion before another without the use of force.

"Is that your religion? Where is the belief and worship of a superhuman controlling power in there?"

Is that entirely necessary? There is such a thing as nontheistic religion, where you don't accept or believe in God's, which existed in the allotted time frame of the SMA, and Aurvandil fits that bill pretty nicely, but for the sake of argument, Mendicant is very much a controlling power that transcends the limitations of ordinary men. Aurvandil very much can be considered to practice hero worship.

"A hero was more than human but less than a god, and various kinds of supernatural figures came to be assimilated to the class of heroes; the distinction between a hero and a god was less than certain, especially in the case of Heracles, the most prominent, but a typical hero"

Which quite defines the way Mendicant is considered, not necessarily a God, but definitely not of the same class as men. Another thing to consider is apotheosis, we could quite easily say that the coronation of Mendicant was an act of deification, there were multiple, deliberate contrasts to it, and Mendicant has referred to it in a similar manner. A very important thing to remember however, is Aurvandil hasn't denied the existence of God's, we hold an epicurean belief on the God's (We accept the likelihood of their existence, but deny the notion that they interfere or control the lives of humans, and likely don't know of our existence) in our own words we consider them to be irrelevant until such a time as they become relevant.

Geronus

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Aurvandil hasn't declared war on religion, it's only people on the forum saying that as far as I am aware, and last I checked what hearsay posted on the forum doesn't actually reflect the in character policies of Aurvandil. It's like saying Aurvandil has declared war on scouts, if we close a scouts guild. Aurvandil, in it's time has closed a single religious building, and that was done against the instruction of Mendicant, and Aurvandil however has made it perfectly clear what other realms believe/worship/build isn't any of our business, and is below our notice, the only time we would take exception to their religion is when they try to force it on other realms, which, as the last free realm of the League, we are obligated to do. If we declared war on religion to spread our own views on religion, then how would that make us any different from realms that try to spread their religions by force? It wouldn't, but it would make us hypocrites. Aurvandil isn't going to be fighting any war to spread religious views, quite simply.

Whoa, you consider yourselves part of the League? I guarantee you that no one in S.A. is aware of that little gem...

NoblesseChevaleresque

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Whoa, you consider yourselves part of the League? I guarantee you that no one in S.A. is aware of that little gem...

Damn good thing this is being said OOC then.

Indirik

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Depends on what you consider to be religious I suppose, which opens a kettle of fish about buildings in Aurvandil we can consider to be religious, or sacred, etc.
This isn't really about what I consider religious. It's your realm, and your rules. I'm asking you about your rules, not my viewpoints. You say "we simply don't allow unauthorised religious buildings in Aurvandil". Therefore, you already define authorised and unauthorised religious buildings. I would like to know Aurvandil's definitions of authorised and unauthorised.

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Aurvandil hasn't declared war on religion...
Well, yeah, you kinda have. You may not have said the exact words "Aurvandil hereby declares war on religion", but you said pretty much the same thing. (This took me a while to find, running through my old saved junk...)

Quote from: Mendicant
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...you would tolerate and regulate religion, where I have and will abolish it's very existence indiscriminately.

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How does one battle religion? You destroy it as a concept, you remove its need or necessity, you disprove and de-construct it, in essence, you make it redundant and subject it to the worst of fates for anything in existence, irrelevance. When people have no need of forlorn belief and hope, they will not look for it.

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Aurvandil stands as the example of irreligion, where commons and gentry combined have seen the very concept of religion become an irrelevant concept

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Why would we acknowledge, or pay obeisance to the doubtable existence of God's or higher powers, that are in all probability unaware or uncaring to our existence, when we have a Monarch, the truest image, and earthly presence of a God.

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God's were only ever modelled to be a cheap facsimile of a Monarch; God's could never be as tangible, plausible and undeniable as a Monarch.

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Aurvandil has only Monarchy, and not religion, and I would see to it that keeps that way.

Is it any wonder that people all over the island (most of whom have probably seen all these by now) believe that Mendicant has declared war on religion? You declared flat out that you doubt the existence of gods, that they are cheap facsimiles of yourself, that you want to destroy the very concept of religion, that you have and will abolish its very existence, etc., etc. ... So, no, I don't have any quotes from Mendicant saying "I declare war on religion". But I have enough other things that convince me, and pretty much everyone who's seen these, that Mendicant has, in fact, declared war on religion even though he hasn't used the word "war".
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Geronus

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Damn good thing this is being said OOC then.

Yep. Unless you actually want a Crusade declared on Aurvandil, anyway. Though to be honest, I'm not certain what the end result of that would be.

Regarding the ongoing discussion about whether you've declared war on religion, if you truly consider Aurvandil to be in the League then you already have declared war on Sanguis Astroism at least, we just don't know it yet.

Solari

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Back to OOC commentary on IC events: I thought the speechifying against religion was rather ill-advised on Mendicant's part. Whatever his actual motives, I'm not sure why anyone who's been otherwise savvy would actually commit those words to record.

Geronus

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I don't think Mendicant is the type to care what other people think. He's quite arrogant, after all, and supremely self-confident.

NoblesseChevaleresque

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This isn't really about what I consider religious. It's your realm, and your rules. I'm asking you about your rules, not my viewpoints. You say "we simply don't allow unauthorised religious buildings in Aurvandil". Therefore, you already define authorised and unauthorised religious buildings. I would like to know Aurvandil's definitions of authorised and unauthorised.
Well, yeah, you kinda have. You may not have said the exact words "Aurvandil hereby declares war on religion", but you said pretty much the same thing. (This took me a while to find, running through my old saved junk...)


Is it any wonder that people all over the island (most of whom have probably seen all these by now) believe that Mendicant has declared war on religion? You declared flat out that you doubt the existence of gods, that they are cheap facsimiles of yourself, that you want to destroy the very concept of religion, that you have and will abolish its very existence, etc., etc. ... So, no, I don't have any quotes from Mendicant saying "I declare war on religion". But I have enough other things that convince me, and pretty much everyone who's seen these, that Mendicant has, in fact, declared war on religion even though he hasn't used the word "war".

Well that's just it, Mendicant hasn't so much declared war on religion as he's said "I won't let it enter my realm" which is completely different, to say he's declared war on religion would imply he actually intends to... fight a war against religion. Where at current he doesn't even need to do that, there is no war and no conflict involved, nor is there isn't an agenda in Aurvandil to do so, we simply uphold our current state of not-having-a-religion in Aurvandil.

It's on the same line as Aurvandil saying "We currently have no Republicans in Aurvandil, and we won't accept Republicans into the Commonwealth" being taken as "Aurvandil declares war on all Republics everywhere".

I don't think Mendicant is the type to care what other people think. He's quite arrogant, after all, and supremely self-confident.

This.

Though, Mendicant takes the time not to care about other realms religions, it's a shame the same disinterest isn't afforded to Aurvandil.
« Last Edit: July 26, 2012, 06:44:31 PM by NoblesseChevaleresque »

Indirik

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Well that's just it, Mendicant hasn't so much declared war on religion as he's said "I won't let it enter my realm" which is completely different, to say he's declared war on religion would imply he actually intends to... fight a war against religion.
That's not the impression you give people when you send those kinds of messages. If you wanted to say "I won't let it enter my realm", then you can just say that. When you say you want to "abolish it's very existence indiscriminately", that doesn't sound anything like "We don't want it in our realm".

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It's on the same line as Aurvandil saying "We currently have no Republicans in Aurvandil, and we won't accept Republicans into the Commonwealth" being taken as "Aurvandil declares war on all Republics everywhere".
No, that would be completely different. Because none of those are what was said, nor even remotely close to what was said. If you had said "abolish [republicanism's] very existence indiscriminately", then it would be similar.

If you really are intending to just say "We don't want it in our realm, we don't care what you do in your realm", then you're not getting your point across very well. Pretty much everyone outside your realm (and, judging by the Madina situation, quite a few people inside your realm) takes your meaning as wanting to destroy all religion period. Perhaps you should try to say what you mean in a different fashion. Or at least recognize where the misunderstanding comes in, and accept that it's a natural consequence of the way you're saying things.

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Though, Mendicant takes the time not to care about other realms religions, it's a shame the same disinterest isn't afforded to Aurvandil.
If no one took interest in what other people were doing, then the game would be pretty boring. We'd all be better off playing single player games. The whole point of an MMORPG is interacting with other people. Being interested in what they are doing, and them being interested in what we are doing.

You also completely avoided this question: "You say "we simply don't allow unauthorised religious buildings in Aurvandil". Therefore, you already define authorised and unauthorised religious buildings. I would like to know Aurvandil's definitions of authorised and unauthorised."
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Though, Mendicant takes the time not to care about other realms religions, it's a shame the same disinterest isn't afforded to Aurvandil.

Again, this is probably because everyone else is trying to play as a Medieval noble who would definitely concern himself with the religious beliefs of those around them, and not as Thomas Jefferson saying "Whether my neighbor believes in one god or ten, it neither picks my pocket nor breaks my back! Live and Let Live, my good man!"
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