Implementing flanking in 1-D combat

[Penchant]

The way CK2 does it is fairly cool. An army is comprised of three flanks, and you can designate what troops go into what flank. The flanks fight separate battles, but when a flank wins, it joins the central fight with a major combat bonus. Could anything be taken from that?

It could be a unit setting though what is complicated with this is formations with this, in my mind.

[Tom]

I've been thinking about having a semi-2D battlefield, with 3 fixed lines: center and left and right flanks.

The way to avoid the "everything in left flank" abuse is obvious: Players can pick a line, but whatever line has the most men in it automatically becomes the center. So if some army puts everything into the left flank, the left flank becomes the center, any stray units that were put into center or right flank would become right flank, and left flank would be automatically empty.

The real difficulty with this is not the setup, but the movement between the flanks. The closest I've come to a solution there is to only ever allow movement into the center, never out of it.

[Bedwyr]

I've been thinking about having a semi-2D battlefield, with 3 fixed lines: center and left and right flanks.

The way to avoid the "everything in left flank" abuse is obvious: Players can pick a line, but whatever line has the most men in it automatically becomes the center. So if some army puts everything into the left flank, the left flank becomes the center, any stray units that were put into center or right flank would become right flank, and left flank would be automatically empty.

That does seem quite straightforward.

The real difficulty with this is not the setup, but the movement between the flanks. The closest I've come to a solution there is to only ever allow movement into the center, never out of it.

Agreed.  My suggestion...

If you win on a flank, your troops move to the center with a flanking bonus, in whatever their formation was, after X rounds have passed.  Once the center concludes, the battle is over and winners are declared based on that alone.  Thus, if you lose on both flanks, but win on the center before the flanking troops "arrive" at the center, you still win.  But, if the center holds on just long enough for both flanking forces to arrive, you may well be hosed by the now flanking troops hitting you.

[Dante Silverfire]

I like this idea Tom.

I also agree with Bedwyr's suggestions.

However, if I may offer one addendum to perhaps even things up: If the center wins, the battle is over. However, the winning center gets one free round of hits on the two enemy flanks as a sort of "retreat" bonus for winning the center flank. This way there is still some strategy for trying to overload the center and push for a quick win there.

However, this retreat bonus shouldn't be too large, but it should be there so that there is also a benefit to "routing" the enemy army as a whole like there is now.

[Zakilevo]

Why not make your enemy's suffer morale loss when you destroy their sides?

[Lefanis]

If you win on a flank, your troops move to the center with a flanking bonus, in whatever their formation was, after X rounds have passed.  Once the center concludes, the battle is over and winners are declared based on that alone.  Thus, if you lose on both flanks, but win on the center before the flanking troops "arrive" at the center, you still win.  But, if the center holds on just long enough for both flanking forces to arrive, you may well be hosed by the now flanking troops hitting you.

+1

Goodbye blobs  ;D

[Indirik]

Wouldn't this be incentive to blob in the center, hoping to win there fast enough to end the battle fast enough to avoid the flanking? Toss just enough on the flanks to let the main force win the center?

It is an interesting idead. Not sure if it wouldn't give realms with a large number of nobles a huge advantage.

[Dante Silverfire]

Wouldn't this be incentive to blob in the center, hoping to win there fast enough to end the battle fast enough to avoid the flanking? Toss just enough on the flanks to let the main force win the center?

It is an interesting idead. Not sure if it wouldn't give realms with a large number of nobles a huge advantage.

How much is enough? 2 nobles? 3 nobles?

What if the opponent splits evenly 30%, 40%, 30%, while you do 10%, 80%, 10%, but the enemy center with 40%, are all in box formation to hold you off and soak up damage. Meanwhile you hardly damage them when the 30%'s destroy your flanks in one blow due to a high cavalry make-up?

It does seem to give realms with a large number of nobles an advantage but they already have one. Whoever has more nobles already is more likely to win. I don't think the advantage is any more than now. In fact, I think this places more of a focus on smart strategy.

100% in the center will not win battles anymore.

[BarticaBoat]

well, aren't there crowding penalties? I like this idea, brings to mind massive cavalry flanks that could rout superior forces. Also, mixed infantry charging in from the flank might even prove useful!

I think if someone blobbed centre, and the other side had a well distributed force with cavalry flanks, a cavalry charge + flank bonus (facing no one means you win?) would absolutely decimate the centre line. blobbing solved.

How would archers behave in a flank scenario? Arrow charge?

Also, I think that winning the centre means you would steel yourselves against a flanking. Or perhaps the entire battle collapses back into 1-D?

[Velax]

I like this idea a lot, but I'm not sure I see how it would be "Bye bye blobs". You'd still be encouraged to put the largest force you can muster together into a single region.

[Lefanis]

I like this idea a lot, but I'm not sure I see how it would be "Bye bye blobs". You'd still be encouraged to put the largest force you can muster together into a single region.

Yes, but the larger force isn't guaranteed a win, if the other side has a smart strategy.

[Bedwyr]

I like this idea a lot, but I'm not sure I see how it would be "Bye bye blobs". You'd still be encouraged to put the largest force you can muster together into a single region.

Not necessarily.  I think some people may have overlooked one of the aspects of this...Battle ends when the center finishes, yes?  So if you put a minimal holding force in the center, just enough for it to stay the center, and put large flanking forces...You could crush the flanks, lose the battle in the center, and keep the majority of your force intact after bloodying the enemy.  Maybe you lose a bunch of crap troops who had high equipment damage, and your cav rakes their flanks.  You'd want a small force to avoid losing a bunch of troops in your throwaway center field.

[Bedwyr]

How would archers behave in a flank scenario? Arrow charge?

I imagine they would just get a bonus to rate of fire (arrow storm, perhaps?), i.e. you get more hits.  I had a half-formed idea that essentially your flanking bonus gives a morale/cohesion boost, which would disproportionately help demoralized and untrained troops, which would add another element to the strategy.

Wouldn't this be incentive to blob in the center, hoping to win there fast enough to end the battle fast enough to avoid the flanking? Toss just enough on the flanks to let the main force win the center?

That's one possibility, but it's a risk, as it would leave a large part of the enemy's forces intact if it works, and if it doesn't you get hit with a huge chunk of the enemy troops having a nice bonus.

[Velax]

Not necessarily.  I think some people may have overlooked one of the aspects of this...Battle ends when the center finishes, yes?  So if you put a minimal holding force in the center, just enough for it to stay the center, and put large flanking forces...You could crush the flanks, lose the battle in the center, and keep the majority of your force intact after bloodying the enemy.  Maybe you lose a bunch of crap troops who had high equipment damage, and your cav rakes their flanks.  You'd want a small force to avoid losing a bunch of troops in your throwaway center field.

There'll be a ton of tactics people would come up with, I'm sure, but stuff like this still seems more risky than simply putting all your troops in one big blob.

You put your cavalry, etc on the flanks and a weak holding force in the centre, as you said. But what happens if blob guy puts all his forces on that flank too? Your forces get crushed. What happens if you miscalculate and your centre loses faster than you think? You take rout damage (if that's implemented) and did nothing to hurt them. And I don't know how much your throwaway nobles will appreciate having been thrown away.

I guess this would at least give small forces a chance of victory over large ones, where currently they have none. But still seems safer to simply blob your troops.

[fodder]

um.. when they do the "join the centre" bit...

what position do they start from?!  behind enemy? position where they chopped up the enemy in the other flanks? default start position?

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tom said chunkiest of the 3 lanes will be the centre