Barca

[Geronus]

That theory sounds rather too much like a conspiracy. Things do not work like that.

Um, yes they do. That's exactly how this group works. Who do you think started all the rumors about Astrum attacking Caerwyn? How do you think it is that 3-4 seemingly unrelated characters drifted into Caerwyn from different SA realms, all telling the same false story about our plans to attack them? I agree that things don't work like that most of the time because most groups of characters simply aren't that well coordinated, but this particular group are outliers. They're extremely tight-knit and well organized, more so than any other group I have ever encountered in this game. That's not a complement either, not when you take into account their apparent lack of qualms about exploiting loopholes in the game.

[Galvez]

One joined Barca, and before that stopped in D'Hara. That's the sum of it though so far, so I wouldn't expect it to have much sway one way or the other.

I have been contacted by two nobles who would like to join Barca. One just arrived, and I guess the other is still on his way. I do not know if they used to be Saxons.

[dustole]

Um, yes they do. That's exactly how this group works. Who do you think started all the rumors about Astrum attacking Caerwyn? How do you think it is that 3-4 seemingly unrelated characters drifted into Caerwyn from different SA realms, all telling the same false story about our plans to attack them? I agree that things don't work like that most of the time because most groups of characters simply aren't that well coordinated, but this particular group are outliers. They're extremely tight-knit and well organized, more so than any other group I have ever encountered in this game. That's not a complement either, not when you take into account their apparent lack of qualms about exploiting loopholes in the game.

I know I am responsible for some of those rumors.  I spoon fed Baal some lies and had other nobles from other realms do the same.  I like to think that I am 51% responsible for the Caerwyn vs SA war.

[vonGenf]

I know I am responsible for some of those rumors.  I spoon fed Baal some lies and had other nobles from other realms do the same.  I like to think that I am 51% responsible for the Caerwyn vs SA war.

If you add up all the percentages of how much people think are responsible for that war, you're likely to reach at a minimum 600% overall.

[dustole]

If you add up all the percentages of how much people think are responsible for that war, you're likely to reach at a minimum 600% overall.

You are probably right.  All in all it was a lot of fun for a lot of people and that is what really matters in the end.

[Vellos]

With all this frustration against "the Saxons," you'd think someone would have made a list of all their UserIDs, compiled evidence, and at least made some kind of evidentiary case out of it. I see, time and time again, accusations against "the Saxons" and "these same players," but, strangely, never any UserIDs, often contradictory statements concerning them, a great readiness to create ex post facto explanations, and the already-noted conspiracy-theory habits.

If people truly have a complaint against them that they are somehow violating the Social Contract, compile your evidence, and bring it to the Magistrates. But this constant non-evidentiary bullcrap is almost as annoying as how every Dwilight discussion returns to SA.

[Nosferatus]

With all this frustration against "the Saxons," you'd think someone would have made a list of all their UserIDs, compiled evidence, and at least made some kind of evidentiary case out of it. I see, time and time again, accusations against "the Saxons" and "these same players," but, strangely, never any UserIDs, often contradictory statements concerning them, a great readiness to create ex post facto explanations, and the already-noted conspiracy-theory habits.

If people truly have a complaint against them that they are somehow violating the Social Contract, compile your evidence, and bring it to the Magistrates. But this constant non-evidentiary bullcrap is almost as annoying as how every Dwilight discussion returns to SA.

That is because such specifics are for the Titans who never did or could do anything about it.
I won't ever waste my time investigating them because i know nothing ever will or can be done.
I mean how can you give watertight proof of them communicating outside the game?
Its very hard to do something about things like this, but i agree positive discussion would be more useful.
For example how can we do something about it in the future?

[dustole]

With all this frustration against "the Saxons," you'd think someone would have made a list of all their UserIDs, compiled evidence, and at least made some kind of evidentiary case out of it. I see, time and time again, accusations against "the Saxons" and "these same players," but, strangely, never any UserIDs, often contradictory statements concerning them, a great readiness to create ex post facto explanations, and the already-noted conspiracy-theory habits.

If people truly have a complaint against them that they are somehow violating the Social Contract, compile your evidence, and bring it to the Magistrates. But this constant non-evidentiary bullcrap is almost as annoying as how every Dwilight discussion returns to SA.

My understanding of the situation is that evidence was gathered and it was found that they weren't breaking any rules or that they couldn't figure out exactly who was breaking the rules.  Also the reason that topics get hijacked by SA all the time is that 1 in 4 nobles on Dwilight belong to that religion.  We are simply too awesome!!!

[Perth]

We are simply too awesome!!!

Nah dude, just mainstream.

*dons hipster Terran sunglasses*  8)

[vonGenf]

1 in 4 nobles on Dwilight belong to that religion.

Is that all?

Back to work, then!

[Perth]

1 in 4 nobles on Dwilight belong to that religion.

Would be interesting to get a break down of religion percentages for nobles on the continent, actually.

[Geronus]

With all this frustration against "the Saxons," you'd think someone would have made a list of all their UserIDs, compiled evidence, and at least made some kind of evidentiary case out of it. I see, time and time again, accusations against "the Saxons" and "these same players," but, strangely, never any UserIDs, often contradictory statements concerning them, a great readiness to create ex post facto explanations, and the already-noted conspiracy-theory habits.

If people truly have a complaint against them that they are somehow violating the Social Contract, compile your evidence, and bring it to the Magistrates. But this constant non-evidentiary bullcrap is almost as annoying as how every Dwilight discussion returns to SA.

I try not to toss around accusations about multi-cheating and such not. As far as I know that complaint has been made, investigated, and dismissed for lack of evidence, so I believe that they are not multi-cheaters. I try to stick to things that are known, such as what I said. Players in Caerwyn have said IC and OOC that several nobles joined their realm from various SA realms over a course of time, all bearing the same patently false story. The fact that it came from seemingly different and unrelated sources made it more credible, but trust me when I say that it was completely made up - that takes coordination, and that kind of coordination between characters from young or even new families who started their careers in different realms and had little reason (or even ability) to communicate IC is just unusual no matter how you look at it. Evidence of wrongdoing? No. Unusual enough to merit comment? Yes. It skirts a line in my opinion, but there is no evidence of actual wrongdoing.

That's the crux of it. They don't actually do anything wrong per se, but everything they do leaves a bad taste in your mouth when you stop to consider how it is that they might have accomplished it. That's why nothing gets done about it. The actual, proven exploitation gets stopped (a la the family wealth loophole), but beyond that what can be done? How do you prove that a group of characters are systematically violating the spirit of the game? And how do you even define the spirit of the game? I have a sense of what it means to play fair and I feel that what they do crosses that line, but again I cannot prove anything.

[Phellan]

I try not to toss around accusations about multi-cheating and such not. As far as I know that complaint has been made, investigated, and dismissed for lack of evidence, so I believe that they are not multi-cheaters. I try to stick to things that are known, such as what I said. Players in Caerwyn have said IC and OOC that several nobles joined their realm from various SA realms over a course of time, all bearing the same patently false story. The fact that it came from seemingly different and unrelated sources made it more credible, but trust me when I say that it was completely made up - that takes coordination, and that kind of coordination between characters from young or even new families who started their careers in different realms and had little reason (or even ability) to communicate IC is just unusual no matter how you look at it. Evidence of wrongdoing? No. Unusual enough to merit comment? Yes. It skirts a line in my opinion, but there is no evidence of actual wrongdoing.

That's the crux of it. They don't actually do anything wrong per se, but everything they do leaves a bad taste in your mouth when you stop to consider how it is that they might have accomplished it. That's why nothing gets done about it. The actual, proven exploitation gets stopped (a la the family wealth loophole), but beyond that what can be done? How do you prove that a group of characters are systematically violating the spirit of the game? And how do you even define the spirit of the game? I have a sense of what it means to play fair and I feel that what they do crosses that line, but again I cannot prove anything.

Sounds like they'll get along great with the Aurvandil group that led the Libero Rebellion.  LOL.

[Bedwyr]

With all this frustration against "the Saxons," you'd think someone would have made a list of all their UserIDs, compiled evidence, and at least made some kind of evidentiary case out of it. I see, time and time again, accusations against "the Saxons" and "these same players," but, strangely, never any UserIDs, often contradictory statements concerning them, a great readiness to create ex post facto explanations, and the already-noted conspiracy-theory habits.

If people truly have a complaint against them that they are somehow violating the Social Contract, compile your evidence, and bring it to the Magistrates. But this constant non-evidentiary bullcrap is almost as annoying as how every Dwilight discussion returns to SA.

The Titans and Tom specifically looked at the Saxon group.  There was definitively something fishy, but extremely tangled.  I am not aware of what all actions were taken, but discussions among the devs indicated that there was some multi-ing going on, and there was a concerted effort to get around game mechanics that they used to create several thousand gold out of thin air.

[Vellos]

That's the crux of it. They don't actually do anything wrong per se, but everything they do leaves a bad taste in your mouth when you stop to consider how it is that they might have accomplished it. That's why nothing gets done about it. The actual, proven exploitation gets stopped (a la the family wealth loophole), but beyond that what can be done? How do you prove that a group of characters are systematically violating the spirit of the game? And how do you even define the spirit of the game? I have a sense of what it means to play fair and I feel that what they do crosses that line, but again I cannot prove anything.

Here's an idea.

Stop being systematically hostile and conspiratorial against them, and maybe we can demonstrate the spirit we want them to exhibit. What? Leading by example? Who does THAT these days?