Barca

[Glaumring the Fox]

Yes, but you certainly weren't shy about making a scene in the Church over what happened after Sianon built it.

Holy !@#$ twist history batman. I was the one who told her to tear it the !@#$ down. She unilatteraly built the temple going against the very tennants I wrote into law as king in Asylon. What I made a huff about was Caerwyn aggresion Astrum blew off my warnings and was later attacked... Perhaps I was wrong in a few things but at least I wasn't as delusional as Astrum with their "peace in our time " type speeches.


You make sound like I supported it...

[Lopeyschools]

Probably not appropriate on Dwilight. Italian medieval city state republics would fit with the current Europe focused SMA, though given the influence of Greek thinking on western Europe, you could probably make a case for it. I presume you refer to the Athens style republic, because like so many things no two Greek City states agreed on the principles of a republic, not even all city states WHERE republics.

Athens was a republic in name only for a lot of it's history if I recall, various oligarchies or tyrants held the majority of power. Just an influence mind you, not an overt Roman republic

[De-Legro]

Athens was a republic in name only for a lot of it's history if I recall, various oligarchies or tyrants held the majority of power. Just an influence mind you, not an overt Roman republic

As was the case with nearly every republic. They have either been scams from the start, or eventually saw the concentration of power while they still upheld the trappings of a republic.

[Glaumring the Fox]

That is why it is important to at least strive for the ideal of the republic or lapse into tyranny.

[De-Legro]

That is why it is important to at least strive for the ideal of the republic or lapse into tyranny.

That assumes that the republic form is inherently superior. Given its repeated failure to endure and prosper perhaps it simply is as weak as the common men it supposedly empowers.

[Glaumring the Fox]

Agreed.

[Carna]

Does it matter what Julius said? It doesn't go against the federation treaty, so no problems on that ground. And while its all well and good for him to deny SA priests the right to preach or lords the right to build Temple's, if a Senator wanted to build a SA temple, what's he going to do about it? The Senate and Barcan nobility at large have not approved his declaration, so its all just words. Until such time as it is ratified, I don't expect there is much he could do. Anything he could try to do, before that point, could easily be quashed on the grounds of his lacking the right to make that call individually.

Not that I don't see where he's coming from. I wouldn't say its theocratic, that he is part of a religion that opposes or is contesting with SA. It could be, but is there any basis whatsoever to support that? Far more likely that it is political, or in the interests of his realm and the republican system that Barca is trying to achieve. SA talks rather constantly about wanting to dominate Dwilight. An excellent ambition for those in SA. An underlying threat for everyone else who'd rather do their own thing. If SA moderates were heard more and SA extremists less, then maybe impressions would be different, but I'd say the same about those of Muslim faith IRL.

There's no weight behind the partial ban on SA in Barca right now and there might never be. It could be forgotten about or SA could well provide a good reason to justify what Julius wrote. Either way, I suspect Julius and everyone else in Barca is going to put the interests of Barca before the interests of political correctness or being nice to the big bad SA. If SA deals fairly with Barca and the Véinsørmoot, then it would be contrary to Barca's interest to oppose SA in their realm and could end up even welcoming it. Its all up in the air right now, but I don't expect it to be that big a talking point in Barca when there's things like the Port Nebel incident with the Luria's or the Aurvandil/Madina/Caerwyn affair to Barca's south.

SA's great and all, but they're a problem or a perk for another day when they're not the furthest thing from Barca.

Finn.

[Adriddae]

If SA moderates were heard more and SA extremists less, then maybe impressions would be different, but I'd say the same about those of Muslim faith IRL.

The "moderates" actually dominated up until the Caerwynite Betrayal against Astrum. There were a few who wanted to expand more aggressively and more forcefully before then but they were constantly opposed and so nothing gets done. From my observations the elders do nothing in controversial situations against foreign realms. Usually its mostly the long travel times that prevent SA from enforcing itself across the continent.

Also I think your confusing whats being said on the forums. I've never heard SA wanting to dominate the continent IG. Perhaps preach to the entire continent and eventually convert people, but never dominate/conquer/subjugate it. Its interesting because the fantasies of SA wanting to conquer the continent or "put a SA duke on every city", are usually generated by non-SA people who are afraid. You'll see instances similar to Caerwyn where they are openly hostile to SA realms but are eventually destroyed themselves. Then other realms fear SA for destroying the realm and the pattern repeats itself.

[Galvez]

Julius doesn't follow any recognized noble religion. And because we as Republic believe in freedom of religion* we prohibited priests from SA to preach in Barca.
* = That is a free as it gets in medieval Europe. As noble you have the right to follow any faith you want, as peasants you just follow the faith of your Lord or whatever is being preached.

I would say that Barca is a oligarchic republic. The Barcan Senate rules the realm. We are nothing like a tyranny.

[Bael]

You see, it is true that religion can be a binding force. Regrettably, it can also be a dividing force of dangerous severity. You see, when I was in Caerwyn, I suspect that I was the only individual in the entire realm that made overtures toward friendship with some of nobles of Astrum.

The rest of the realm effectively ignored them. I believe it is this attitude that was partly to blame for bringing about the war, and almost definitely the reason that Caerwyn preferred destruction to surrendering to the Astroists.

An excerpt from a message that my character sent.

[Vellos]

I'd personally love to see SA more active in Maroccidens. As a player I quite like SA, and my character is a very moderate Triunist, and Triunism already views SA as a variant. We in Terran have been rather disgruntled over Barca's unwillingness to allow SA; the original draft of the Treaty of the Maroccidens had stronger protections for religions, but it was shot down, largely by Barcan opposition.

[Bael]

I'd personally love to see SA more active in Maroccidens. As a player I quite like SA, and my character is a very moderate Triunist, and Triunism already views SA as a variant. We in Terran have been rather disgruntled over Barca's unwillingness to allow SA; the original draft of the Treaty of the Maroccidens had stronger protections for religions, but it was shot down, largely by Barcan opposition.

I believe the Barcan concern is more about the realm and the Lord's rights, than religions. What good is there in protecting religions? They will continue regardless.

[cjnodell]

As a founding member and the first judge of Barca I might be able to shine some insight into Barca's stance on religion, including SA. When I was appointed Judge I wrote out the laws of our republic and presented them to the Senate. The Senat approved the laws I wrote in their entirety.

As far as religion goes, Barca's laws do not specify anything regarding personal practice thus only the laws of the Barca-Terran-D'Hara federation apply for the time being. Preaching or building temples is prohibited for ALL religions unless a representative of a religion gains permission from the Senate. Thus far only Verdis Elementism and I believe Truinism have sought and gained that approval.

As far as enforcement goes it is likely that the judge would order that preaching stop pending approval of the Senate. If a Senator built a temple without permission, I imagine that the Senator would be fined then Senate would decide if they are willing to accept Temples of that faith in Barca. If not, the offending Senator will be ordered to get rid of the temple. If they do not they will be banned and the new Senator will be tasked with getting rid of the temple. No land owning Senator is exempt from banning as a Lord/Duke can not simultaneously hold a council position.

Barca has the laws and tools, in theory, to control the spread of religions. Of course I can only say what my character would have done. Cedric is hard nosed when it comes to seeing laws followed. None of this would happen unless the senate and judge follow through and I can not say if they would.

As far as Julius' power goes, it officially does not go very far. If one reads our laws it can be clearly seen that he is subject to the Senate will and not the other way around. Thus far, however, the Senate has been content to let him push things through. Most nobles of Barca still give him credit for organizing the founding of Barca and for securing the support of Terran and D'Hara. I doubt that any future leader of Barca will enjoy the same level of autonomy that Julius does.

As far as Barca's general feelings toward SA... I would consider "cautious" the best word. From my perspective in Barca SA has been a force that either incorporates or destroys. None of this makes Barca feel warm and fuzzy when thinking of how the religion might affect things if it were allowed free reign in our little republic!

[Glaumring the Fox]

What about the case for Summerdale or Libero? Are they theocracies?just a question.

[vonGenf]

What about the case for Summerdale or Libero? Are they theocracies?just a question.

It depends a lot on who you ask, and who's asking.