The Wiki - A Valid In Game and In Character Source?

[Cadfan]

Playing wikimaster is different from using the wiki.  Properly.  The game is the game and the wiki is the wiki.  I do not post in the wiki in character, but as a player and as a wiki editor.  The participation in both is different.  That's clear, isn't it?

No because as several people have so far explained, but which you refuse to listen to, the Wiki is used and is expected to be used as a IG and IC storage facility, much like a library.

No.  I am not trying to imply that.  I am questioning the assumption that everyone in OW should know about the damn treaty.  I asked a simple question: "Did the treaty between Jenred and Galiard say anything as to what would happen if Arcaea failed to take over Enlod as planned?"  Your answer implied that something was wrong with me because I did not know what the treaty was and I had not read it on the wiki. 

Everyone on the island, and perhaps even beyond can know about the treaty. It is IC to access the treaty on the wiki, as several people have tried to explain to you. There is also the fact that the treaty, once passed was posted to everyone in your realm. So if you refuse to use the wiki as a in game source, you really probably should have recorded it then.

No.  I'm upset because, apparently, you believe I'm supposed to know.  Then you say I was not supposed to know.  Which one is it? 

Massive logic fail. He said your character should know the details of the final treaty, for reasons explained above, he never implied you were involved in the discussion that resulted in that treaty

Never has this meaning of "Republic" been assumed or implied.  My character and Galiard had a good little feud that, I hope, was an enjoyable roleplaying experience for both of us.  This had nothing to do with the Forum or the Wiki or the Constitution... but with a totally legitimate IC reason and family history.  Many and many a year ago, when Sasrhas seceeded from Lasanar, Sir Galiard Scarlet was the general.  Baroness Adelina Driscol of Attlel secceeded Attlel from Lasanar to join Ohnar West.  Of course Galiard Scarlet hates the Driscols and any younger Driscol would be weary of Galiard Scarlett.  That's normal.

That would depend. The most logical interpretation of many of your comments is that the treaty was handled poorly because not everyone had "access" to the forum that discussed it. In that context it is fair to assume that you believe this because the realm is a republic and thus should be open to all members of the realm.

You seem to misunderstand my argument completely. 

I never complained about peace on the island.  Lefanis started this thread, not me.  Read it again.  My first contribution to it was just the question about the treaty.  You claimed I should know about it because it was in the wiki.  But I haven't got the answer to my question. 

I thought the answer to this question would help the discussion about peace/war on the FEI.  I still don't know the answer to this. 

Because you have still failed to avail yourself to the source of the required info. He also didn't claim you were complaining about peace on the island, he was refering to the fact you decided to have what appears to be a OOC rant about how a treaty was handled in OW in a thread that is about peace on FEI. In other words he questions how relevant your rant was to the topic at hand.

BTW, you're a moderator.  You're supposed to be helping discussions, not fueling flame wars.

Look is it obvious you don't want to use the wiki as it was intended. Fine I'm sure no one will force you. It is also evident that De-Legro and others are trying to counter your claim that its not a IG source of info, to prevent other players being misinformed based on that. If you are going to keep trying to argue your case, they are going to keep needing to refute it. Its not a flame war, more a argument that has yet to see both sides moving towards a mutual understanding.

[Gloria]

The treaty is in the diplomatic treaties, in game, that is visible to your character.  As I told you in my first response.  Or you can look on the wiki to check it.  You're an experienced player, look up the treaty and see what it says.
[/quote]

Exactly.  I read that one.  And  it says nothing about what OW or Arcaea should do shall they fail to take over Enlod. 

With De-Legro's response, I assumed that there was something else on the wiki that was different from the treaty that is available in game.  Do you see my confussion now?

That answer implies that there was a treaty on the wiki that was different from the one drafted by the Ambassadors in the game.

Was it too hard to say "no, there's nothing in the treaty about that" or "yes, the part of the treaty that says [blah] means that OW and Arcaea should [blahblah]"?   

Gee, guys, really.

[Gloria]

Everyone on the island, and perhaps even beyond can know about the treaty. It is IC to access the treaty on the wiki, as several people have tried to explain to you. There is also the fact that the treaty, once passed was posted to everyone in your realm. So if you refuse to use the wiki as a in game source, you really probably should have recorded it then.

Yes, I've always had access to the treaty drafted by the ambassadors and actually played in the game.   That one does not answer the question I originally posted in this thread.  De-Legro's answer implies that there is a treaty "on the Wiki" that does answer that question, therefore different from the official and in-game treaty.  Does this document exist?

[Bedwyr]

Yes, I've always had access to the treaty drafted by the ambassadors and actually played in the game.   That one does not answer the question I originally posted in this thread.  De-Legro's answer implies that there is a treaty "on the Wiki" that does answer that question, therefore different from the official and in-game treaty.  Does this document exist?

The treaty on the wiki is exactly identical to the treaty in-game.  As I already explained.

[Gloria]

You should never have to check any forum/list/group outside the game itself to play BattleMaster. Everything that you do in the game, should always be here in the game. Certain things are stored on the wiki for reference, record keeping, history, etc., but that's not something you need to regularly check to play. In fact, you can mostly ignore it, if you don't feel like participating in it.

That doesn't mean you can't discuss things outside the game, or maybe engage in a bit of forum-based RP, if that's what you like. But if it's something that affects in-game things, it should happen in-game.
- De-Legro

This was my point.  Duh.

Please mark the source of quotes clearly when they are not from the forum. It does nobody any favours to quote things without context.

[Indirik]

(snipped a message sent in-game as an OOC)

This was my point.  Duh.

For reference, that was sent IG when one of the players in OW sent an OOC about not being able to log onto the forums, and how he didn't want to have to check in-game messages *and* forum posts, because he didn't have time. He obviously misunderstood the whole "the Forum is an IG message group" thing.

However, I still stand by my previous statements of posting a treaty on the wiki for reference, and posting an IG link to it, as being perfectly valid. They are both valid tools. By telling that person that they didn't need to check the wiki, I meant that they didn't need to check it for updates all the time. No one will post realm orders on the wiki, and they should be posting laws on the wiki without announcing them in-game.

[songqu88@gmail.com]

It's really easy to link to any page on the wiki though. With the amount of text one has to read anyway in this game, either one doesn't read the text provided in-game anyway (in which one wouldn't care), or one is too lazy to click the link (in which case there's no helping it and such a lazy individual doesn't get to enjoy whatever benefits he/she thinks he/she deserves), or one is genuinely too busy to check (in which case that's unfortunate but there are many more people in the realm who can check).

I think it's fairly common practice for responsible realm leaders to link to the wiki in case that is used as a place to save the text. If there are differences between the wiki and in-game sources, then that can be taken up by the characters, as the wiki, unless otherwise marked as OOC, or obviously OOC (like the merchandise pages, userpages, etc), are fully valid IC material.

Now excuse me for saying this, but I am seeing this as a baseless complaint about being excluded from some group. It happens.

I'm not trying to antagonize you, but these complaints right now don't sound very convincing, given the nature and the situation thusfar explained by the other members who have varying extents of knowledge about the matter.

[egamma]

Gloria, you say that people are missing the point you were trying to make. I'll do my best to address your original post, as best I can summarize from this thread. I'll leave out the parts that have been covered already.

The player of Galiard Scarlett seemed to be playing a whole different game than the rest of Ohnar West, with ...a constitution... published on the wiki but not talked about in the game where it is supposed to be played.

Was the player playing a different game, or the character? I've known some characters who were quite insane.
The constitution was published on the wiki. Does that bother you? Or is it the "to be filled in later" that bothers you?

The only valid complaint I can see is that an unfinished constitution was ratified--that bothers me too. But that's not what the title of the thread is, the title is asking whether the game is a valid IC source. So what is your point?

[Gloria]

egamma,

The moderator decided the discussion about the wiki deserved a different thread.  This discussion stemmed from the "Down with the Peacekeepers" thread.  The title, therefore, is not mine. 

[Gloria]

Also, it was not my question whether the wiki is a valid in game in character source.  My point here is that characters are not wiki editors.  A character may write a newspaper or  a document or a book or tell a story and make it available to others.  But I think that the wiki is also an ooc source and it must be as truthful and objective as we can make it as players... that is, my character may be a liar but publishing lies in the wiki because of it seems to me like misusing the wiki.  And in that sense, I think that the wiki and the game are two separate entities and, while the wiki is about the game, you do not publish or edit the wiki in character.   That means that  I should not be able to publish a constitution of a realm on the wiki and automatically have it become the constitution of this realm, until there is gameplay that supports it. 

Maybe that is not what the player intended, but that's the way it came across to me.  It was unnecesarily confusing.  And I think playing a character who tries to confuse other characters is ok, but it becomes bad gameplay when you make it difficult for players to follow what is going on. 

[De-Legro]

Also, it was not my question whether the wiki is a valid in game in character source.  My point here is that characters are not wiki editors.  A character may write a newspaper or  a document or a book or tell a story and make it available to others.  But I think that the wiki is also an ooc source and it must be as truthful and objective as we can make it as players... that is, my character may be a liar but publishing lies in the wiki because of it seems to me like misusing the wiki.  And in that sense, I think that the wiki and the game are two separate entities and, while the wiki is about the game, you do not publish or edit the wiki in character.   That means that  I should not be able to publish a constitution of a realm on the wiki and automatically have it become the constitution of this realm, until there is gameplay that supports it. 

Maybe that is not what the player intended, but that's the way it came across to me.  It was unnecesarily confusing.  And I think playing a character who tries to confuse other characters is ok, but it becomes bad gameplay when you make it difficult for players to follow what is going on.

Your right, its totally not what the player intended, and to be honest I'm puzzled how anyone could think it was when he was still asking for people to vote for it in the realm. Unless what you are trying to say is no realm should have a constitution until there is a IG way to record them, which probably isn't going to happen.

Whatever your belief, it is already established that the wiki IS a IG source, and large parts of it are IC.

[Gloria]

Your right, its totally not what the player intended, and to be honest I'm puzzled how anyone could think it was when he was still asking for people to vote for it in the realm. Unless what you are trying to say is no realm should have a constitution until there is a IG way to record them, which probably isn't going to happen.

Well, as I said, it was unnecesarily confusing. 

It got tricky when you had to vote on what was already on the wiki as some sort of official document to see if we wanted to keep it as the official document. 

Heck, playing an illiterate former Outer Tilogian finding her way in a Republic like Riombara was a lot easier than, as a player, figuring out what the hell was going on in Ohnar West. 

Whatever your belief, it is already established that the wiki IS a IG source, and large parts of it are IC.

But that was never my question, that was what you asked yourself to title this thread. 

And yes, the wiki is an IG source, but it is not a replacement for the game itself.  The game and the wiki need to match.  And you do not match the game to what it says in the wiki, but it is the wiki that must describe what is already going on in game.  Does that make sense?

[De-Legro]

And the wiki did match the game. A draft proposal was stored on the wiki for voting, much like how in modern life I can go to the council offices to view proposed development applications and register a complaint against them. The proposed development application is an official document, but is not yet ratified.

[Anaris]

And yes, the wiki is an IG source, but it is not a replacement for the game itself.  The game and the wiki need to match.

This is not necessarily the case.

As the Wiki is an IG and IC source, in some cases, it can be used for propaganda and lies.  This is particularly true in newspapers, but can also happen in other parts of the Wiki.

Naturally, it must not happen in parts like the manual and help pages, which are less IC.

[Gloria]

Yes, but even when it is used for propaganda and lies, it matches the fact that, in game, there is someone interested in spreading such propaganda and lies.