Realm size vs Potential gain

[DamnTaffer]

Older players being able to have two characters on one continent, and then two when even older seems fair to me.

I'd feature request it but I've a feeling the dev team would just lolno me.

[Chenier]

I'd feature request it but I've a feeling the dev team would just lolno me.

I have the same impression. You can still try, though.

[JPierreD]

Indeed, a trend I've started to notice is the attempt to bring realms together via guilds in order to increase the pool in which players can communicate (Sanguis Astroism, although a religion, also can work in this way).

If we could have vassal realms, resulting in the creation of multi-realm empires, a message option to "all members of the empire" could help counter the shrinking player/realm ratio to stimulate interaction.

Well, yes, unfortunately the idea would then require a message-system reworking. If you can message members of the empire in the same way as realm-mates the feature would lose its raison d'être, changing very little.

Perhaps if you could only message all of the empire members but not individual members of other realms in the empire, unless you have their contact.
See: Lurian Empire.

[Kwanstein]

That is a good point. More characters squeezed into the same play time = less attention to each individual character.

About this, in all of the realms I've played in it seems like <10% of the players participate amongst themselves while everyone else is locked out or too apathetic to join in. I doubt things could get any worse than the current situation.

I'd place the blame mainly on realm size and the inability of knights and Lords to meaningfully participate in gameplay. Currently only council members and Dukes have any real power, and council members are severely limited due to entire Islands being consolidated by half a dozen super realms. Furthermore it's hard to feel any sort of connection to these uber realms because they're so big. The difference between a large realm and a small realm in this way is like the difference between a Walmart and a small, local business.

I think the proposal in the opening post is a good idea if only to break up these mega realms into smaller realms, as that would make more council positions available and allow for more individual participation.

[Chenier]

About this, in all of the realms I've played in it seems like <10% of the players participate amongst themselves while everyone else is locked out or too apathetic to join in. I doubt things could get any worse than the current situation.

I'd place the blame mainly on realm size and the inability of knights and Lords to meaningfully participate in gameplay. Currently only council members and Dukes have any real power, and council members are severely limited due to entire Islands being consolidated by half a dozen super realms. Furthermore it's hard to feel any sort of connection to these uber realms because they're so big. The difference between a large realm and a small realm in this way is like the difference between a Walmart and a small, local business.

I think the proposal in the opening post is a good idea if only to break up these mega realms into smaller realms, as that would make more council positions available and allow for more individual participation.

The problem with small realms is that, often, barely anyone cares to run for any form of office. Often, if you scrap those with you clearly can't trust with the positions, you have no candidates at all.

You end up with everyone having titles, but the titles being meaningless and the title-holders doing no more than the average knight of a large realm would 'cause the only one who put his name in during elections couldn't be arsed to actually do his job.

You also end up having much less of the active people who stimulate action and discussion, reducing the activity of those who would be willing to react without wishing to initiate anything themselves.

[Indirik]

The really funny part about your claims, Kwanstein (I'm not trying to ridicule you or anything, you just happened to be the one to make the claim), is that these "mega realms" can't hold a candle to the way it was six years ago. Back then, having 90 or 100 nobles in your realm was *average*. The "mega realms" were dangerously close to 200 nobles. And the "feeling powerless" thing? Back then *everything* was centrally controled. And back then you only had three characters, not five, per player. (Four if you donated.)

The thing is, all of your claims are completely erroneous based on historical data. The more freedoms and distributions of power that people were given, the *fewer* players we have. IMNSHO, this is because all that stuff, while it might seem nice in theory, destroys the "us vs. then" team aspect of the game, and turns it almost into a "me vs. everyone else" mentality.

IMO we need *more* reasons to return to realm-based team focus.

[Lorgan]

IMNSHO, this is because all that stuff, while it might seem nice in theory, destroys the "us vs. then" team aspect of the game, and turns it almost into a "me vs. everyone else" mentality.

Not joining in in that trend is the mark of successful realms, large or small.

[Kwanstein]

I started playing about 8 years ago and I can't say I remember 90 characters being normal for a realm. Of course it all depends on what realms you were exposed to, but for my part I mainly played on the East continent and I only remember the mega realms there (Sirion and Perdan) having so many characters. Avamar, Coimbra, Old Rancagua and later Obsidian Isles had quite a bit less iirc, especially the last three.

But I agree that as the game has gotten more complicated it's started to lose it's charm. The complication that stands out most to me was the initial implementation of the liege/estate system, where you had to go seek out some Lord, send him an Oath offer and hope he'd take it. It was a big hassle that didn't increase my enjoyment, and I dearly missed the old tax system where (iirc) everyone but the King just got a base amount. Even now that the tax system has been refined and improved I still think the old one would be better.

As far as the Us vs Them mentality goes - I felt that strongly when I first joined Coimbra, but eventually I realised it was futile as the game world was just too static, with mega realms always maintaining the status quo regardless of how many smaller realms arose and fell around them.

[Gustav Kuriga]

The really funny part about your claims, Kwanstein (I'm not trying to ridicule you or anything, you just happened to be the one to make the claim), is that these "mega realms" can't hold a candle to the way it was six years ago. Back then, having 90 or 100 nobles in your realm was *average*. The "mega realms" were dangerously close to 200 nobles. And the "feeling powerless" thing? Back then *everything* was centrally controled. And back then you only had three characters, not five, per player. (Four if you donated.)

The thing is, all of your claims are completely erroneous based on historical data. The more freedoms and distributions of power that people were given, the *fewer* players we have. IMNSHO, this is because all that stuff, while it might seem nice in theory, destroys the "us vs. then" team aspect of the game, and turns it almost into a "me vs. everyone else" mentality.

IMO we need *more* reasons to return to realm-based team focus.

Just put something out there... I've been on this account for two years and still only have 3 characters. It isn't as easy as you say to get to where you have four or five characters, which for a college student who has little money, is something of a problem if you want to donate your way.

[Zakilevo]

Just put something out there... I've been on this account for two years and still only have 3 characters. It isn't as easy as you say to get to where you have four or five characters, which for a college student who has little money, is something of a problem if you want to donate your way.

You couldn't get 20 fame and 5 medals over two years?...

[Gustav Kuriga]

Uhm... no.

[Perth]

The thing is, all of your claims are completely erroneous based on historical data. The more freedoms and distributions of power that people were given, the *fewer* players we have. IMNSHO, this is because all that stuff, while it might seem nice in theory, destroys the "us vs. then" team aspect of the game, and turns it almost into a "me vs. everyone else" mentality.

I don't know. A lot of people like to say this lately; that the "us. vs. them / team play" mentality is leaving the game. I don't really buy that. Show me a single realm that doesn't have that. Every realm I play in, that is involved in a war, has a pretty huge "we're the good guys, they're the bad guys" vibe going. Look at Atamara, EC, or Far East. Those islands especially are solidly locked in the team play mentality. Hell, the war in Atamara that's been going for two years now was the ultimate culmination of that: "Hey the Cagilan Bloc is evil! Let's get them!" splitting the whole island into Two Teams. The Far East has that happening right now as well, North v. South. Dwilight is extremely dominated by team play and mentality: the power blocs (Astroism, 'Moot, Luria, Aurvandil) and there is precious little conflict between those "teams", or even the individual realms, outside of the Lurias.

There will always be internal conflict and politicking among (almost always) the very dedicated and active players, however those players are always in the minority. The rest remain pretty steadfast in the team play mentality, and don't see how the game has moved far from that mentality at all.

[Gustav Kuriga]

I don't know. A lot of people like to say this lately; that the "us. vs. them / team play" mentality is leaving the game. I don't really buy that. Show me a single realm that doesn't have that. Every realm I play in, that is involved in a war, has a pretty huge "we're the good guys, they're the bad guys" vibe going. Look at Atamara, EC, or Far East. Those islands especially are solidly locked in the team play mentality. Hell, the war in Atamara that's been going for two years now was the ultimate culmination of that: "Hey the Cagilan Bloc is evil! Let's get them!" splitting the whole island into Two Teams. The Far East has that happening right now as well, North v. South. Dwilight is extremely dominated by team play and mentality: the power blocs (Astroism, 'Moot, Luria, Aurvandil) and there is precious little conflict between those "teams", or even the individual realms, outside of the Lurias.

There will always be internal conflict and politicking among (almost always) the very dedicated and active players, however those players are always in the minority. The rest remain pretty steadfast in the team play mentality, and don't see how the game has moved far from that mentality at all.

That's exactly why I don't see the team mentality as such a good thing.

[Poliorketes]

I don't know...

This begun with a discussion about big-realms(25 reg.) vs. small-realms(10 reg.), now it's about team-work vs. 'individualism'...

Maybe I'm wrong, but I think we are discussing how to make this game as fun as possible, and I think all kind of things who cause conflicts, will cause interaction between the players... and interaction is FUN!!! 

Three 10-reg realms will usually cause more conflicts than one 30-reg realm, a realm full of individualist nobles will cause more troubles (and fun) than one with a excellent team-work!... BUT in the end, the 30-reg realm with team work will destroy the three 10-reg realms full of individualist nobles!!! They will be death boring, but are more efficient! And efficiency win wars! ... in some way BM award boring gaming.

I don't know how, but I think BM would have more 'personal goals', and a lot more... 'noble conflict'.

Right now, what can do a noble?

-Go to war: YES. If you realm is in war. It's not very detailed, but It's funny... in fact, it's one of the best things to do right now in the game.
-Fight monsters: YES. Not bad, but after a while can be a bit boring... You don't really gain much (a bit honour/prestige).
-Recover some relic: NOT. The more likely is a unique item. Only recovered by Adventurers.
-Duel other nobles: NOT. Even with just reasons, the offender noble don't have to duel, so this is totally unused!
-Bribe for/buy some position: NOT. As is now, it totally impossible do this.
-To murder some rival: IMPOSSIBLE? You could do it only with Infiltrators, and for what reason? rival on what matter?
-To be rich: YES and NOT. Yes, you can get all the gold you want, but for what?... Gold don't have many uses in the game.
-To be Famous/Powerful: Even more useless than to be rich!!! Honestly, the Powerful men in BM are really very little powerful!

In short, nobles have almost no goals, even worse, these little goals they have don't conflict with the other nobles goals!

If you let me make a political comparison: This game is a bit like communism,  all people is almost equal, not matter position or wealth... and this is good! But if all people is almost equal... for what, are you going to fight for?

[Indirik]

It all depends on what you consider fun, Poliorketes. I had a lot of fun working as only 1 of 150 nobles in Perdan back in 2006 when we were pretty much the single most powerful realm on the island. We didn't have much serious internal realm conflict. But what we had was a LOT of war. There wasn't much opportunity for personal gain or achievement. Back then most realms were very full, so the chance for advancement was pretty small. But it mostly didn't matter. We had a hell of a lot of fun fighting against our enemy, and cooperating in doing so. Even though we had a general and a few marshals (which was mostly an empty honorific), the military council had 20 or so people that all worked together, and any one could give orders, not just the marshal. It was a lot of teamwork and cooperation.

It just seems to me like everything has been so decentralized, and so much effort has been put into empowering individuals, that we've somehow lost that cooperative spirit. Or maybe I'm just not playing in realms where it still exists.