Clan activity detrimental to the game

[BattleMaster Server]

Summary:	Clan activity detrimental to the game
Violation:	Expected to play BM as you would play a game with friends
World:	Colonies
Complainer:	Clark Raven Napper
About:	Vladamire

Full Complaint Text:
A claim has been made OOC against myself, David Wierbiki, Christian Steiner, James Marshall, and unspecified others by three players in Outer Tilog (the player of the Arverni family, and JakeWilmot, and James D.) of clanning activites including, but not limited to, using OOC reasons for an IC ban and being an "Old Club". I feel we have nothing to hide and the situation is obviously detracting from other players enjoyment of the game, so I'm bringing this matter before the Magistrates in an effort to clear the air by placing it before an open forum.

[Lefanis]

Please post all the concerned messages here so the magistrates can look over them.

[steelabjur@aol.com]

Please post all the concerned messages here so the magistrates can look over them.

A little background, this latest bit spawned from Delirus Ironsun (Christian Steiner) IC banning Deycon Sutherland, then banning Eirik Rauoa Veder Saga when he spoke up in opposition to the ban. I'm not free of any wrong-doing, I clearly violated the SC in my outburst and I am willing to face whatever punishment is deemed appropriate for doing so, but we are not a clan, nor are we acting on OOC information IC as claimed, and I will not stand idly by while my name and the names of players who I've grown to consider friends are slandered in such a way.


Out-of-Character from Deycon Sutherland   (14 hours, 16 minutes ago)
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You know what sod this. If you're going to arbitrarily ban someone as an act of sheer twatery the least you can do is not piss !@#$ all over their profile.

Thats not even a proper ban message.
James Raffety


Out-of-Character from Rakaarox Nabarl   (14 hours, 8 minutes ago)
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This is Outer Tilog... People have been banned for far more pathetic things than that in the past, also some completely made up stuff. I think someone was banned once for wearing a pink tutu, which they'd never actually done. It's different here, we let anyone be a part of it (and encourage them to), but don't try to change us...


James Marshall


Out-of-Character from Vercingetorix Arverni   (10 hours, 56 minutes ago)
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Sorry, I can't agree that that's just fine. It is hardly "special" or "funny" to ban someone "for the lol". Fine them? Sure. RP something punative? All good. Actually kick them out the realm for doing basically nothing? Just obnoxious.

Out-of-Character from Calen Bickerstaff   (10 hours, 40 minutes ago)
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I'm with Arverni on this.

Banning Deycon is maybe excusable, banning Eirik simply for speaking up is utter nonsense. Worst example of Bad-player-conduct since I joined actually, and I play in Aurvandil so I get to see all the horrible sides of players on the forums directed my way. Quite honestly, since it has been made clear there is a sort of Old Club here in O.T. of Players, never mind characters, I have to ask would you ban Garm or Rakaarox for the same things? I'm pretty sure I can bet you wouldn't. Ergo it's not about IC actions but quite a clear OOC decision.

I was going to protest but then I just expected to get banned along with Eirik. OOC I expected it. So that show's you how you've over stepped the mark, when people don't feel they can even play their characters in response.
JakeWilmot


Out-of-Character from Vladamire Abjur   (10 hours, 17 minutes ago)
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Delirus joined OT late last year, is hardly a player who could be called "old", and is the Minister of Injustice, the one handing out the bans. The player of Eirik Rauoa has made it pretty clear that he has an OOC beef with the player of Garm and is willing to carry that into IC. Excuse me if I don't shed any tears for one player who has done nothing for OT but ignore orders and has never said or did anything to make himself noteworthy and another whose only contribution has been sniping at a long-standing member because he dislikes the player OOC. OT is a realm of madness and evil, not a place where you're going to find a lot of fairness, the trick is to learn how to play the politics. Would Garm or Rakaarox get banned? Likely not, they have entrenched themselves in the dirty deals required to survive here. I wasn't banned for losing the freaking capital to Giblot! Care to guess why?
Clark Raven Napper

Out-of-Character from Vladamire Abjur   (10 hours, 15 minutes ago)
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Hey James, I think that was Sedgewick Questor wasn't it? Or was there another?
Clark Raven Napper

Out-of-Character from Vladamire Abjur   (9 hours, 29 minutes ago)
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Also, Jake, there is the "silent protest" option precisely for the reason that you can use it to remain anonymous and/or avoid repercussions. Protesting isn't an Inalienable Right and you can (and probably should) get a pop in the nose if you decide to do so against a powerful and/or influential noble publicly without currying favor/support first.
Clark Raven Napper

Out-of-Character from Eirik Rauoa Veder Saga   (8 hours, 57 minutes ago)
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An OOC vendetta?

No, the fact my character, along with about a dozen others in BoM opposed Garm's other character's appointed of his own family members to a region the same day he joined the realm and the ordering of assassins on members of the realm prior to duelling them goes against BoM culture. It is an IC position shared by the vast majority of the realm, aside from Dane's silent, unheard of, instantly supportive legion of assassins which leapt up to defend him for absolutely no good reason. Besides, (I)Hanz killed Dane (Garm) in BoM, so what bad feelings could I possibly have. Duels to the death in the Barony are not uncommon in the first place.

But that has nothing to do with Eirik's comments over this banning, other than as he see's it it's the kind of thing Garm would do and has done, like the last person who got banned a while back. Why should I gave a damn OOC other than as a player I think it's a bit extreme.

Furthermore to that, what do you mean "The player of Eirik Rauoa has made it pretty clear that he has an OOC beef with the player of Garm and is willing to carry that into IC". I have no such thing, so firstly don't lie to say I do I wouldn't be so petty, it's a damn game, and actually as a general rule not only have my characters got on with Crownguard's until this particular incident in BoM less than two weeks ago but I've generally liked the player behind the characters.

Secondly and more importantly, how do you even know the circumstances of this to make such an assertion? You're not in BoM so how could you possibly know unless Garm told you. If he told you he did it OOC, making the whole damn thing up. So what he messaged you, or maybe a whole gang of you with him he is friends OOC and spun you this story to get my character banned? To give motive to an unseemly unsportsman like attitude? If this is true then this is a clear OOC infraction on the game.

I back what Jake said, upon reading that. If Garm has in some way communicated that to you which he must have then this is a damn OOC racket.

I want Crownguard speaking up on this, and I want to know exactly how you know about BoM, because this is nigh slander and a perversion of the playing spirit of BM.

You know, I don't even have the energy now to contest this crap IC. Not even sure I want to either if this is true.
James D.
Out-of-Character from Garm Tanngrisnir Crownguard   (8 hours, 17 minutes ago)
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Let's keep it IC.  This looks like evil deviants vs normal humans.  A threat to Outer Tilog's well established deviant way of life has been perceived IC and is being acted on IC.  Nothing more.

Garm did not ask or tell anyone to ban anyone.  These have been IC actions.  Completely insane IC actions, but IC actions just the same.
David Wierbiki

Out-of-Character from Vladamire Abjur   (5 hours, 18 minutes ago)
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Dave, I know you said to keep it IC, but I can't let what James D. said go without being responded to.

Dave has no control, IC or OOC, over Delirus, the character who banned Eirik Rauoa Veder Saga and Deycon Sutherland, and neither do I. Get that through your thick skull. I mentioned your obvious dislike of Dave as why I don't care OOC over your banning. This dislike is obvious in the fact that practically your only interaction with the realm IC (proven to me through speaking to many other players here) has been to snipe at Garm given any opportunity to do so. How would Eirik Rauoa Veder saga know "it it's the kind of thing Garm would do and has done" when he has been here a hot minute? Also, "like the last person who got banned a while back", who would that be? The last time I recall someone being banned from OT, it was Sedgewick, who came here with an intent on stirring trouble between OT and Lukon and was banned for that reason. Your professed reasoning has no IC basis to support it.

While me and Dave have spoken OOC occasionally over the YEARS we've been together here, and we've talked about the situation in BoM (as I have regarding the situations in dozens of other realms in BM with various players I know over the years I've played BM), more importantly, he has gained my trust as a player and my friendship as a person. If he tells me someone seems to have a problem with him, I believe him. When that person acts in an odd way, for example pretty much only interacting with the realm to take shots at him, it only confirms that the trust I've put in him is well founded. Now, for calling me a liar, first off, !@#$ YOU. Secondly, for calling someone I consider a friend a liar, !@#$ YOU you, you little piece of !@#$!

I'm sorry if my harsh language offends, but that's pure bullpuck and I won't stand that.
Clark Raven Napper


Out-of-Character from Calen Bickerstaff   (4 hours, 23 minutes ago)
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Love how aside from all the baby swearing neither of you responded to James.D/Eirik to say how you know about the Barony of Makar stuff. Or why you know. Sort of proves a point in itself.
JakeWilmot

Out-of-Character from Vladamire Abjur   (4 hours, 18 minutes ago)
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Perhaps you should reread what I wrote Jake, I said Dave and I spoke OOC privately about it quite clearly.
Clark Raven Napper

Out-of-Character from Calen Bickerstaff   (4 hours, 10 minutes ago)
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Actually I wanted a clean quote from you.

So basically ; you're in a clan. So he's right, this is OOC.
JakeWilmot

Out-of-Character from Martin Enstance   (3 hours, 58 minutes ago)
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Please keep the bull!@#$ting in character. Even if the players of Vlad and Garm are in a clan together, that's fine. They're not as far as I know (which should be pretty damn much given our numerous IC disputes here), but even if they were it would be perfectly fine because they can keep IC and OOC separated.

Now please move on before this derails completely. If you can't handle it IC, you have every right to stay quiet. If you think this is OOC bull!@#$, go to the Titans or the Magistrates, whichever system is currently in use and to your liking.

Ruben Baader

Out-of-Character from Vladamire Abjur   (3 hours, 57 minutes ago)
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Nope, no clan here, and as both Dave and myself clearly stated, we have no control over the player of Delirus' actions. Neither of us asked him to ban anyone, he took that action on his own and has no connection to anything OOC that I'm aware of. Even if we were a clan, the players here in OT have never been exclusionary in our actions. That claim is absurd.
Clark Raven Napper

Out-of-Character from Gregor Fitzalan   (3 hours, 39 minutes ago)
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Sorry I don't think I wish to play in this realm any more.

Out-of-Character from Jonathan Reiser   (3 hours ago)
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We would have some brilliant role-playing here if all this emotion would be poured into in-character actions. =)
Heikki Wilenius

Out-of-Character from Vladamire Abjur   (1 hour, 27 minutes ago)
(Personal message to Jonathan Reiser)
True enough, but it seems a few people can't keep IC and OOC apart (namely James D, Jake, and the player of the Arverni characters). As Ruben pointed out Garm and Vlad and Haroldin have been rivals as often as allies over the years  while we, as players, have no ill feelings toward each other and get along just fine (the same could be said of me and Wilson Hendrix, both of us were rulers of realms at war at one point IC, but I have nothing but respect for him OOC). Again my apologies for the language I used in that outburst, they just really got me POed.
Clark Raven Napper

Out-of-Character from Vercingetorix Arverni   (1 hour, 53 minutes ago)
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It has pretty much been proved this realm has players who play OOC then. And the swearing from Vladimir was totally unnecessary and childish, let alone disgusting.

Out-of-Character from Vladamire Abjur   (1 hour, 27 minutes ago)
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I would love to know how you came to that conclusion. I mean, I agree with your assessment of the situation, but I highly doubt we agree on which players/characters are the problem.
Clark Raven Napper

Out-of-Character from Vladamire Abjur   (17 minutes ago)
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http://forum.battlemaster.org/index.php/topic,3192.0.html

Lets put this matter to rest, shall we?
Clark Raven Napper

[Anaris]

So basically ; you're in a clan. So he's right, this is OOC.

This quote is a pretty huge eyeroll.

The logic, unless I'm mistaken, seems to go:

"Player A told Player B something OOC. That means that they're in a clan together. And that means that all these bans are for OOC reasons!"

There's just so much wrong with that.

It seems to me that this all comes back to 2 main points:

1) The two bans are seen by some in OT as having been OOC motivated (for whatever reasons).
2) The establishment in OT is seen as being an OOC clan, because they defend each other and....have sent OOC messages to each other at some point in the past.

No matter how many messages are presented, (1) can never, of course, be disproved. Knowing someone else's intent can only be done by mind-reading. However, regardless of the intent, it does not seem that the bans violated anyone's Inalienable Rights, and thus they are perfectly valid IC bans. Don't like them? Tough.

Naturally, it's difficult to disprove (2) with certainty as well, because there's no way we can know what contact people have outside the game. However, having been in Outer Tilog myself in the past, I can say with confidence that it's a place that you either get, or you don't. If you don't get it, you're very likely to get the feeling that those who do are somehow in a club that you're not in. This impression will be reinforced by the fact that if you don't get Outer Tilog, chances are your character is being played as a sane, normal human, and those types don't last long in Outer Tilog. Not for OOC reasons, but for IC ones. Its way of life is just antithetical to them, that's all.

Honestly, I don't see anything here but some people with preconceived notions of OOC collusion and violations of Fair Play finding their biases confirmed everywhere they look, and refusing to consider alternative explanations. (As people suffering from acute prejudicial confirmation bias tend to do.)

[Fury]

Complainer:	Clark Raven Napper
About:	Vladamire

You are both the complainer and the one you are complaining about - battlemaster.org/UserDetails.php?ID=20952?

Full Complaint Text:
A claim has been made OOC against myself [...] by three players in Outer Tilog (the player of the Arverni family, and JakeWilmot, and James D.)

What are the UserDetails.php URL of these 3 players? Without this information, it's hard to follow the messages posted and knowing who is saying what.

[Lefanis]

You are both the complainer and the one you are complaining about - battlemaster.org/UserDetails.php?ID=20952?

If I read the original post right, he has been accused by those players, and thus by starting a case against himself, wishes to clear his name. Unless I got it all wrong...

Anyway, the plaintiff ought to clarify whether this is the correct interpretation of his complaint.

Is he-

• Trying to clear his own name by creating this case.
• Asking action be taken against those who accused him of cheating.

[Geronus]

Please provide some background on the issuing of the bans. I gather that the second character was banned for protesting the first ban, which taken out of context is entirely acceptable. Why was the first character banned?

[Vellos]

The first character's "ban reason" is:

Banned from Outer Tilog by Delirus Ironsun.
Reason: Too tidy. Too clean. Human sneakysneak!

Sounds to my kinda like Outer Tilog being Outer Tilog.

Arbitrary, irrational, and corrupt bans are not technically prohibited.

However... (brace for what could become a flamewar)

In my opinion, the entire realm of Outer Tilog should be locked/deleted from the game. A realm whose culture and playing style is so wildly divergent from the entire rest of the game that any remotely normal playing style results in bans and OOC flamewars is an inherently exclusive place, and is not playing as if with friends, IMHO. Having never played there myself I don't have personal experience here, but from what I hear people saying, we're fine with an exclusive clan... if its the Traditional Tilogian Culture Clan. But, IMHO, just because you post a disclaimer ("Warning: Outer Tilog is Different") doesn't mean you get exemptions from the Social Contract, and I struggle to imagine how Outer Tilog could continue to exist bereft of its hyper-exclusive culture.

[Anaris]

The first character's "ban reason" is:
Sounds to my kinda like Outer Tilog being Outer Tilog.

Arbitrary, irrational, and corrupt bans are not technically prohibited.

However... (brace for what could become a flamewar)

In my opinion, the entire realm of Outer Tilog should be locked/deleted from the game. A realm whose culture and playing style is so wildly divergent from the entire rest of the game that any remotely normal playing style results in bans and OOC flamewars is an inherently exclusive place, and is not playing as if with friends, IMHO. Having never played there myself I don't have personal experience here, but from what I hear people saying, we're fine with an exclusive clan... if its the Traditional Tilogian Culture Clan. But, IMHO, just because you post a disclaimer ("Warning: Outer Tilog is Different") doesn't mean you get exemptions from the Social Contract, and I struggle to imagine how Outer Tilog could continue to exist bereft of its hyper-exclusive culture.

I...don't think you understand what is meant by an "exclusive clan".

Anyone can play in Outer Tilog, as long as they're willing to play along. There is no attempt to discourage people who have never played there before from joining (except perhaps to warn them that it is different), and new players who can recognize the atmosphere and adapt their play style to it—which doesn't even necessarily mean that they must make their characters evil, crazy, and cannibalistic; they just have to find a way to live there without antagonizing the locals—are welcome.

It's different. It's weird. Some people don't understand it. But that's not reason enough to remove it from the game. The same can be said of some other realms—Riombara comes to mind, especially Riombara of 3-4 years ago. There were people who joined Riombara and, essentially, tried to play like it was a Monarchy. (On the flip side, there were people who joined Pian en Luries and tried to play like it was a Republic.)

Try it for a while before you condemn it as being as bad as or worse than clans, Vellos.

[Tom]

OT has its own culture, but nothing in normal OT violates the Social Contract, because the SC does not require a certain style or culture. And while OT does not fit in with anything else, and would certainly not even remotely be considered SMA, on Colonies there is no reason why OT could not persist.

Yeah, there's a bit of an "Old Guys Club" there because the people who play in OT play there exactly BECAUSE it is different and don't want it to be turned into just another realm. However, the club is not exclusive and regularily gets new members - everyone who does join the OT culture and spirit.

[Geronus]

It's not unusual for a particular realm to have an ingrained culture. And it's not unusual for that culture to set up major clashes when characters arrive who do not fit in to that culture.

Hypothetical example A:

A noble who is not in an organized religion joins a theocracy of Sanguis Astroism. Said noble becomes disenchanted with the actions of SA and criticizes the religion publicly. Result: much flaming, a possible ban, one way or another that character leaves. This or something like it has played out more than once in actuality.

I can think of several non-hypothetical examples too. Most of the problem here in my opinion is a number of people taking things too personally on both sides of the issue. Discussions of the validity of OT's existence however are pretty far off topic. Let's not derail the case thread.

[steelabjur@aol.com]

Arverni family (Player of Celtillus & Vercingetorix Arverni): http://battlemaster.org/UserDetails.php?ID=32807
James D.(Player of Eirik Rauoa Veder Saga): http://battlemaster.org/UserDetails.php?ID=28329
JakeWilmot (Player of Calen Bickerstaff): http://battlemaster.org/UserDetails.php?ID=32793

The other people named in the above complaint are:

David Wierbiki (Player of Garm Tanngrinir and Iuz Vidar Crownguard): http://battlemaster.org/UserDetails.php?ID=28740
James Marshall (Player of Rakaarox & Jost Nabarl): http://battlemaster.org/UserDetails.php?ID=316
Christian Steiner (Player of Delirus Ironsun): http://battlemaster.org/UserDetails.php?ID=27359

And I am the player of Vladamire

Lefanis is correct, I started this case to clear my and my fellow players names from these baseless claims. I do not care if action is or is not taken against our accusers, but I have a strong feeling that our accusers would not bring this matter forward on their own, so I am doing so.

[Geronus]

I'd like to hear from the players on the other side, if they are following along.

[Ironsun]

In order to state the obvious, I'm the player of Delirus Ironsun.  8)

No, I'm not a member of any clan. While I do know some BM players in real life, NONE of them has a character in Outer Tilog.Yes there is some plotting and counter-plotting going on, but, at least as far as I'm concerned, it is purely IC.  I  don't know what else to say about this, but I'm certainly ready to answer any questions.

[Geronus]

In order to state the obvious, I'm the player of Delirus Ironsun.  8)

No, I'm not a member of any clan. While I do know some BM players in real life, NONE of them has a character in Outer Tilog.Yes there is some plotting and counter-plotting going on, but, at least as far as I'm concerned, it is purely IC.  I  don't know what else to say about this, but I'm certainly ready to answer any questions.

Can you elaborate on why the first ban was issued? I'm more curious than anything else.