Rogue Judges

[Norrel]

And if the Judge is not immediately protested out for banning the entire realm, that says to me that he has done his groundwork.

Considering how banishment prevents you from protesting, maybe not. All he needs to do is just banish everyone immediately.

[Chenier]

Bans don't go into effect for three turns at the soonest, I believe you can still protest up to that point, yes?

I don't think so, no.

Here you go Dominic.

If my above statement is correct, then the quoted solution changes nothing to it. If the judge bans 20 nobles in half an hour, out of a realm of 25-30, odds are the remaining few wouldn't be able to protect him out of office. In a bigger realm, that'd be 8 more bans a turn later. The dekay after replacing the judge before bans go in effect is moot if there's no way to get rid of said judge.

Not counting the special restriction that we know nothing about, mind you.

[Eldargard]

I just wanted to point out that, from an in-character perspective, he did not ban 'the entire realm.' he only banned 17 on the most influential nobles - the player characters. There are supposed to be, as I understand it, to be a vast array of minor nobility / officials behind the scenes. The whole thing seems a bit less dramatic, in my opinion, if this is kept in mind. When it comes down to it, the minor nobility / officials are probably used to senseless banns and even mass bans for the sole purpose of advancing a single nobles political  agenda. I am not convinced that, from the perspective of the officials enacting a ban by the order of a legitimate judge, this would clearly be a laughable order.

I also believe that the king sending letters to the 20 most influential nobles of the realm, declaring the Judge a traitor and spy, would have had much impact of the minor nobility / officials of the realm. In my mind, it is doubtful that they ever received the message aside from hearsay. Besides, there is often talk of traitor and spies so why give this latest rumor much thought. It is just another day at the job. Now, if the king had protested the Judge, and thus officially alerting the minor nobility / officials and all the influential nobles he had sent messages to had protested the judge, these minor nobles / officials would have been officially notified and they would have stopped taking orders from the evil man. As far as I can tell, this never happened.

As far as I am concerned the minor nobility / officials had received rumors one day and official orders the next. Orders banning a small portion of nobility, albeit a majority of influential nobles. I am sure that these guys probably thought, "Wow. Look at this. It looks like there are some serious power struggles going on again. I wonder who will be filling the void this time around?"

At the same time, I do not feel that the position of Judge was ever meant to be a tool for enemies to use to do massive damage to the realm. I think that it is perfectly plausible but not what was intended. I like the measures Tom mentioned but I am not sure about the grace period. It seems unnecessary to me and reduces the impact of a crazy/traitorous Judges too much I think. When a crazy Judge or Traitor Judge does this kind of thing it should really be an inconvenience...

With the easy out:
Judge: Ban them... or as many as my hours/restrictions allow!
Officials: Done. They have three days.
Remaining Influential Nobles: The guy just banned me and is a traitor. We protest!
Officials: If you guys say so. He is no longer Judge.
Influential Nobles: Jimmy! You are Judge now!
Jimmy Judge: I hereby revert all your bans. I also ban the traitor!
Influential Nobles: Yeah!!!

Without it:
Judge: Ban them... or as many as my hours/restrictions allow!
Officials: Done. They have three days.
Remaining Influential Nobles: The guy just banned me and is a traitor. We protest!
Officials: If you guys say so. He is no longer Judge.
Remaining Influential Nobles: Jimmy! You are Judge now!
Jimmy Judge: In five days, I hereby revert all your bans. I just need to sort out the logistical mess Traitor left behind.
Ruler: I exile you traitor!!!
Jimmy Judge: Everything is in order now.  I ban you Traitor (If you are still around)
Influential Nobles: Grumble... Finally I can Join the realm again... Man this was a pain...


I can not say that all the details are right and I am assuming that remaining nobles would be capable of protesting the guy out of office. It is the general idea I am going after anyways. Once again, I do not think that the Judge should be used as a tool of war but I do think that a ban should be a hurdle to overcome. I am cool either way though. I simply can not believe that this is something that has come up so often! I would never have thought of it if not for this thread. Not that I ever would do such a thing...

[steelabjur@aol.com]

You can't ban exiles, Unwin, nor can banned nobles protest, so if he banned enough nobles in one swing he could be virtually immune to those efforts depending on the size of the realm. The banned nobles could immediately join in rebellion and likely have enough members to throw the council out of office, but that presents its own problems in both an IC and OOC sense.

Moreover, in this specific case, the bans were done for "supporting the insane king" (that was the specific reason he gave for the bans as mentioned earlier in the thread). I agree with your point that it would be the lesser nobility that actually carried out the bans, which makes this particular instance make even less sense from an IC perspective. Are we to assume that the entire network of nobles below the influential PCs suddenly turned traitor, from the man-at-arms they hire soldiers from to the clerks that exchange their bonds, all suddenly decided that supporting the king was a ban worthy offense? As Tom said, it doesn't pass the giggle test.

I feel the main issue is in checks and balances, the Judge is the most powerful noble in a realm and the other positions have few options in the way of checking and dealing with him if they feel he's abusing his authority.

[Eldargard]

It is clear that I do not understand the game fully enough to make a contribution of value regarding this topic. I can not say if the games mechanics are up to the task of repairing the damage done in such a scenario. I look forward to seeing how things work out in the future!

[Chenier]

If you ban a noble, his court is also non-grata.

In other words, if you ban everyone, you really are banning pretty much everyone. Their estates will be empty and realm efficiency will suffer.

As for rebellions, they weren't meant to be used this way ("I'm not rebelling against the king, I'm rebelling against the judge! I'll step down right after!"). The short time frame and impossibility to recruit once banned also makes this "solution" quite impracticable.